This Week's Edo Period Corner

[Bugyotsuji]

Actually this book is quite interesting. Never really read it before, just enjoyed the illustrations. The way he has laid it out you get a) a photo of the original hand-written MS. Below that you get b) a transliteration, word-for-word into print, using the original Kanji with furigana readings alongside. Since few people today can get the meaning of this either, he has a third section c) giving a 'modern' reading of the original. Further, he includes notes to clarify words that we still would not understand today.

 

Today I will give you d) a modern (?) English rendering of his c) above. (Just took 10 minutes to try and find the very first Kanji...) Part I

 

"Large guns which go by the name of field guns, (Yasen-zutsu) need to be fitted to a carriage in order to improve mobility. The axle of the carriage can be used as a pivot to adjust elevation, and the wheels will help to take up recoil with smooth backward movement. With opposite movement in the wheels the muzzle can be moved freely left or right through 360 degrees. Adapted for quick movements, a small carriage is good, with a broad track and a thick axle. They will not be as good as Western guns which can be lugged around with horses, but they will not sink into sandy patches, and will be good in gravel or boggy areas, thus good for Japanese topography. There are different firing procedures for Taiho touch-hole cannon carriages and lock-type O-zutsu gun carriages."

[Bugyotsuji]

Part II. (These 'parts' are mine, just to give me a break!)

Actually the original Japanese is very difficult, but easier in some ways to understand than Sawada Sensei's modern 'explanation' Kaisetsu.

 

"In order to fire a (match) mechanical lock gun, kneel on the ground with both knees, stomach down, stretching both arms out to the fullest, put your heels together into your buttocks, hold your breath, infuse Ki into your whole body, and fire. After it fires, receive the gun's recoil between your knees. For a touch-hole gun, (position) behind on the right, with your right knee on the ground and the left knee upright (the pic looks opposite to me?) hold the taper/touch-rod in both hands and put it to the hole; the friction of parts of the carriage that are in contact with the ground will take up the recoil."

 

***This translation is mine and there are no guarantees as to its accuracy. It is based partly on Sawada Sensei's reading of the old Japanese text and partly on the old text itself where I cannot understand Sawada san's meaning.

[IanB]

Piers, After reading that translation, my k*ntama were already aching in anticipation!! The Royal Armouries has an original copy of the book illustrated by Kuniyoshi that originally belonged to Basil Robinson who wrote the definitive book in English on that artist.

These mini-cannon are interesting but there is still the problem of where have all the old muskets gone. Were they really melted down for scrap? Somehow I think not. Here is another possibility - in the early Meiji period thousands of okkashi-to were sold off to (a) South East Asian country (ies). I believe a large batch were discovered in Thailand or somewhere similar about 10 - 15 years ago. Could a lot of the old munition guns have gone abroad somewhere? I don't know but it is a possibility. I have also seen an old hinawaju barrel re-used for centrefire cartridges by fitting a Snider breech and re-stocking. I wonder how many of those were produced.

Ian

[Bugyotsuji]

Excellent, Ian. Perhaps they had their k*ntama pushed up inside or lopped off beforehand!

 

Yes, the introduction mentions BW Robinson's "Kuniyoshi, the Warrior Prints".

 

And, the idea of dumping them out the back door seems to be a plausible theory. At a later date Satsuma are said to have sold off all theirs down south when they bought new British artillery and small arms during the Bakumatsu period. In with the new and out with the old, a repeating pattern?

[uwe]

Hi Piers,

thanks for the help. The whole signature reads "Jinshin 1197 ban Wakamatsu ken" and seems genuine. It is faint and coverd with the same firm rust as the barrel.

Probably, this teppo can be associated with the arsenal at "Wakamatsu castle" (Crane castle)

Uwe

[Bugyotsuji]

Yes, Uwe, that would be a possibility. One thing is that the marking is not actually the signature, but a local goverment registration mark. These can be stamped into the metal of the barrel, or into the stock, or sometimes both. (The gunsmith's signature, or Mei, if there is one, will be found underneath the barrel in 98 out of 100 signed guns).

 

Today I managed to put together more of the story on the heavy hand cannon at my friend's house above. Apparently there were four "Jo-bi-ho" guns made up to protect the walls of Sonobe Castle in Koide. 小出 These became mythical guns, until it became clear that thay had turned up in the possession of people and institutions around Japan. Two are owned by a Mr M in Tokyo, one is owned by my friend Mr O in Kobe, one belongs to a Mr I in Kyoto, and there is one in the National Folk Museum in Tokyo, The Kokuritsu Rekishi Minzoku Hakubutsukan.

 

PS Perhaps I should have known all these facts in advance, but when a good question appears, it is a further chance to do some more delving!

 

PPS Someone handed me the oldest dated gun in Japan today, from Bunroku, with a properly cut date in the barrel. It will be going into the exhibition in March. I hope to be able to photograph everything next week...

 

PPPS I sincerely hope Ron and Ian will continue to keep me honest!

[estcrh]

While we are on the subject, any thoughts on this?

 

[Bugyotsuji]

My immediate thought is that the barrel is not Japanese, but you are going to tell me why I am wrong!!! :lol:

[cabowen]

I have seen several of these tiny cannon and always wondered about them myself....Always wanted one but never came across the right one at the right time...I have seen less and less of them as time went on....

[Bugyotsuji]

They used to be a must item for any rich collector. Part of the problem is there are a lot of fakes now. Even the gun carriages can be made up and aged quite easily. I watched one being made last year. People have begun to mistrust even the real ones... Eric's carriage looks good in the photo, but hard to say. The barrel has a rough and rugged outline that says Chinese, Korean or SE Asia to me.

 

PS Can you give us an indication of size, Eric?

[estcrh]

My immediate thought is that the barrel is not Japanese, but you are going to tell me why I am wrong!!! :lol:

I dont have a clue, I thought you would know! Now what? Here is the description.

 

013001 台付おどし大砲　江戸後期

 

商品説明

とても良い仕事で重量感があります。

実に立派な迫力のある大砲で、さぞ当時は恐ろしかったものでしょう。

芯が詰まっているのでお城の威し鉄砲として置いてあったものでしょう。

詰まっているので登録書はいりません。安心してください。

置物としてみてください。

 

長さ　79cm

幅　　29.5cm

[Bugyotsuji]

He has got some of his facts wrong, so a large pinch of salt is in order. Thanks Eric. The barrel is blocked off, so the seller suggests it was for positioning on a castle wall and scaring people away, and how about using it as an interesting decoration? Like Chris, I would like to own a little cannon one day. This one is a good example of what is available, but I personally would pass on it, as with many so far. I will know when the time comes! Surely someone will love it and give it a proper home!

[estcrh]

One more picture, and some images of another that looks like it might be real, but with an obvious newly made carriage.

 

[Bugyotsuji]

I suspect the whole thing is modern. You'd need to put your finger down the barrel to make sure it has not been made recently of cast iron. Many of these are fakes and would blow up if you tried to use them.

 

If you are seriously interested I will ask someone to look at them tomorrow for you.

[John A Stuart]

Actually to me the first small cannon looks more in line with what I would expect than the last one. The first looks like it is seperate pieces joined by tapered breech plugs and should be low carbon iron (wrought). Any that are cast iron are fakes. Not sure when casting steel was introduced into Japan, however it was quite late. John

[uwe]

One thing is that the marking is not actually the signature, but a local goverment registration mark.

I know, but I haven`t had no precise term for it

This type of "cannon" from Eric looks like a thing called "Böller" or "saluting gun" in Europe......

Uwe

[estcrh]

I suspect the whole thing is modern. You'd need to put your finger down the barrel to make sure it has not been made recently of cast iron. Many of these are fakes and would blow up if you tried to use them.

 

If you are seriously interested I will ask someone to look at them tomorrow for you.

Thanks Piers, Im not looking to buy one, am just trying to pick up some information on what is and is not real and how to spot the difference. There is not enough information in English and not many pictures of guaranteed genuine ones to learn much. I believe there is more information about these types of firearms on this forum than any were else in the world.

[cabowen]

I have heard the same thing-most of these small cannon are fake.

 

There are a few nice ones on display at the yasukuni jinja....

 

Now that I think about it, I did have a chance to buy a really nice one once that I stumbled across at a little antique shop while sightseeing between Takayama and Matsumoto. Unfortunately I didn't feel like dragging the thing along with me the second half of the trip. I should have bought it and shipped it home but the thought didn't occur to me at the time....

[watsonmil]

Dear Eric,

Although I am not 100 % convinced, ... I am going to stick my neck out and say that the first cannon you posted may well be genuine.

Whether it is Japanese or Korean I do not know, ... but I lean strongly towards Japanese. The sights are a little strange, .. but what is not strange about Japanese guns ?? I base my conclusions on the overall appearance, and very convincing patina of the wood and metal fittings. Notice the slightly rounded ( worn ) and discoloured morticed pegs, ... also what appear to be age cracks in the wood, ... the small chip out of the one end side of the carriage ( your last photograph of this gun ). Next the colouration ( and differences in colouration of the metal bands running over the top and down the up-right wooden mount. This subtle difference in PATINA is very difficult to fake convincingly. Again the subtle differences in the patina of the wood is most convincing. Notice also one of the round top nails is dinted and again the subtle differences in patina are most convincing inside the dent. I personally can find NO outstanding feature that screams FAKE. This might change dramatically if examined in person however. If this is a fake it is very well done. As for the second set of photographs ( 2nd cannon with the modern carriage ), ... the sharpness of the casting, and overall patina give it the appearance of a newly created piece. It is much easier to off handedly shout " fake " as in the case of your first cannon than to examine all parts with an eye to how woods and metal react to real age as compared to artificially aging an object. I would be interested in hearing critisisms of my findings from other members.

... Ron Watson

[estcrh]

As for the second set of photographs ( 2nd cannon with the modern carriage ), ... the sharpness of the casting, and overall patina give it the appearance of a newly created piece.

Ron I think you are right on the second one, I took a good look and I can not see any wear which is unusual, the metal seems very smooth and unblemished, the edges are sharp, and you have way more experience than I do with this type of weapon.

[Bugyotsuji]

To retrench a little on the first gun. I posted my opinion before you showed the picture of the muzzle shape Eric. That shot strengthened my feeling that it is a genuine old gun, but I am still not too happy to say it is Japanese. It does not have the feel of Japanese workmanship about it. The trolley/carriage on the other hand as I said above seems to have the right style and age. It pays to stay suspicious however. For these reasons I feel that Ron and I are still fairly close in opinion. We mustn't forget that quite a few 'Japanese' cannon were actually captured and used by the Japanese even though they originated abroad. (Such practice was world-wide.) I will print out the pics and gather some feedback opinion for you. The gun and the carriage could have been put together way back when, and thereafter placed on top of a castle battlement in Okinawa for example.

 

As to the dealer, he says that it is blocked off so it will not need the usual Japanese mandatory paperwork. Cannon with no lock mechanism do not need paperwork in Japan anyway, so this just shows me that he does not know his oats. In this sense I am less inclined to trust his description.

[John A Stuart]

Another thing I suspect is that the lugs on the top are just that, lifting lugs. I think these are made to position at gates to fire bagged shot (like canister) for anti-personnel use. Elevation would be minimal although you may get some by blocking and wedging. The lugs are so it may be carried (slung) minus the carriage to position and the carriage moved seperately. Point and fire and useless for seige bombardment. Whether they could be used shipboard and moved by crane, I doubt as well. John

[estcrh]

I will print out the pics and gather some feedback opinion for you.

Piers, let us know if you get any opinions, even if not Japanese its interesting if authentic.

[Bugyotsuji]

Eric, I will be showing this to someone tomorrow.

 

As to the disappearance of pre Edo guns, Ian, I had an interesting evening over a few toppled tokkuri of hot sake with a group of young (ish) katana shokunin. My fingers are wobbling over the keyboard, but maybe better to report before I fall asleep and forget everything. There was a Habaki maker Shirogane-shi, a tsukamaki-shi, a katana-kaji, a horimono-shi, and a couple of others of that ilk. Once the sake' was flowing (in my veins) I floated the mystery to see what would come up. The idea that these guns might have been sold down the river to somewhere like Korea or South-East Asia was surprisingly quickly dismissed. In fact all of our precious ideas and theories here were deemed unlikely!

 

The suggestion was that, based on the nature of Japanese people to collect up used things and recycle them, leaving everything clean behind, the old gun barrels fed the Edo appetite for iron implements. Nokaji, or country blacksmiths would have had an insatiable appetite for iron material, our drinking party generally seemed to be saying. Many examples were given. Not only for the new Himeji Castle, but for all the new buildings throughout the realm, there was a huge demand for these new-fangled nails. Gold was mined in Sado etc., and they needed pick-axe heads, and trolleys to carry the ore. Boxes and chests were strengthened with iron fittings and fastenings. (Not very romantic, agreed, but more opinion for the pot!)

[watsonmil]

Dear Piers,

 

Alcoholic beverages and scientific discussion rarely go together, .... With respect to the photo provided by Eric ( cannon # 1 ), .... let me quote a passage from a well respected author on Japanese Firearms speaking specifically on the campaigns in Korea : " What the Koreans did have was a rather inefficient form of light artillery, which they had learned about from the Chinese. This the Japanese gunners outshot with no trouble at all, meanwhile devastating the Korean archers. It was an ideal war. They took particular pleasure in capturing the little Korean cannon, and General Kato Kiyomasa sent them home by the dozen as souvenirs. They are just over two feet long and at infrequent intervals, fire a sort of large marble. " Sounds much like the barrel Eric pictures, although we shall never know.

 

Dealing with the disappearance of pre-Edo firearms I previously stated that most ended up in Korea, and I back that up with yet a further .... later in the Korean campaign quote : " The Japanese were now heavily outnumbered, and beginning to face serious resistance. The idea of guns for the whole army began to look very attractive to some of the commanders. A couple of letters written home from Korea in the 1590's reveal their view rather clearly. One was written in 1592 by a provincial lord who had gone over with approximately 1500 archers, 1500 gunners, and 300 spearmen. He wanted to change the ratio. Please arrange to send us guns and ammunition. he wrote to his stewart. There is absolutely no need for spears. " The other letter written by a Japanese nobleman named Asano who was holding Yol-San Castle against a much larger force of Koreans and Chinese wrote his father to arrange for replacements. " Have them bring as many guns as possible, for no other equipment is needed, Give strict orders that all men, even the samurai carry guns . " So between Hideyoshi's confiscations, ... and the Korean campaign, ... I think the answer to the disappearance of pre-Edo firearms is adequately answered.

 

I am sure the occasional worn out Tanegashima found it's way into the hands of Mining Tool makers, ... or Cabinet makers, .... but to account for the disappearance of literally thousands of pre-Edo firearms, I think the campaigns in Korea which are recorded in having used up thousands upon thousands of pre-Edo firearms far out-weighed the recycle attributes of the Japanese. The Japanese version of " Beating Swords into Plowshares ". Perhaps if more material were translated from knowledable European cronicallers and students into the Japanese language such silly round the beer ( excuse me Sake ) table dialogue would be recognized for what it is .... rubbish and relagated to the pot.

 

... Ron Watson

[Bugyotsuji]

Agreed about Eric's cannon. Nice find, Ron. Well, don't forget that Sekigahara followed hard upon Korea, and then the wars continued until the two Osaka campaigns, so there were still plenty of guns around in Japan up until then. I am trying to find as many stories as possible for Ian, even though I may not believe any one of them. Perhaps someone should write a book of theories, and then refute each one... and then confound everyone with the definitive answer.

 

Actually I was told recently about some paperwork indicating a castle inventory somewhere on the Japan Sea coast, Kamei? (will follow up on this) mentioning among the stores a quantity of old gun barrels. This explains, I was told, that rotten stocks were chucked and barrels were recycled/refurbished, though to what extent and how my informant did not say.

 

***As to this week's Edo Period Corner I have found two interesting objects. One is an armband of the Kempei, with the letters MP on it, or an MP's armband with the words Kempei on it, (which?) indicating a crossover time as the occupying troops came into Japan at the end of WWII. The other is a 'stoneblock' (石版画　平版画）lithograph print from possibly Meiji showing in fine detail some Nihonto polishers at work. This last was not cheap, and it needs some TLC, but I will have some fun chasing down the artist and time frame.

http://www.artelino.com/articles/meiji_lithographs.asp

[kusunokimasahige]

Can someone change this thread's title into "This week' s Edo Period Gun and Cannon Corner" ?

 

 

Great info guys !! I am reading many new things which really extend my knowledge on Teppo !!

 

KM

[watsonmil]

Dear Henk,

Actually, ... Pier's insight, accumulations, knowledge of history, if added all together go much, much further than the Teppo or Cannon we have been discussing. He is OUR MAN on site, ... living the culture, ... working among the people. I am only too thankful he is not: " a one tracked mind " ( NIHONTO ). Even though this is primarily a nihonto forum, .... there is so much more to the Samurai Era than Sword Schools. Lets be thankful for what little respite we may get from the everyday postings of WWII Guntos, Tired O-Suriage Tachi, ... Chinese fakes, my God even Butcher Knives of late. I for one look forward to seeing his Kempi/MP Brassard, and Stone Print. " This Week's Edo Period Corner " is MY FAVORITE and I can see it is becoming a favorite of yours if I read you correctly.

... Ron Watson

[kusunokimasahige]

It most certainly is Ron !

 

I am very happy that this board has so many knowledgeable people on it, all helping one another and explaining about that era. From Ian Bottomley to Piers, to Ford and Jacques, Brian, and well I could continue for a long time naming all of them.

 

It is a very very good learning site and also a very useful one for everyone who wants to learn more about Medieval Japan and its culture. That is why the remark was a pun of course The great thing about this thread is that it encompasses so much of the Edo, but also the Sengoku and of course later Japanese culture (up untill WWII and beyond). I like the mixture we have here of art, artefacts, weaponry but also books, architecture and so much more. From the simplest bowl to the most elaborate teppo. It sure is one of my favorite threads indeed.

 

 

KM

[Bugyotsuji]

Maybe the forum should be renamed "The Mutual Admiration Site" :lol: Seriously though, it's always such an interesting place to be.

 

Here are some shots of the armband. It was in a sealed cellophane packet and passed the age/materials check, so I only just opened it for the first time this morning. Not exactly what I thought when purchasing.

 

Note to self: Check everything thoroughly before buying!

 

Former Kanto Gun HQ building in Lushun

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%95% ... eibu01.JPG