This Week's Edo Period Corner

[IanB]

Piers, I take your point about the silver plate being underneath as being visible when loading. However, it is also visible in that position when guns are stored in a vertical position. Many regimental markings on European guns are either on the trigger guard or underside of the stock because when placed in a rack, they sit best with the top side facing the rack. It was also normal to thread a chain through the trigger guards as security - hence the underside of so many munition weapons look as if they were used crack walnuts with.

Ian B

[Bugyotsuji]

Ian, as always many thanks for your valuable input. From what I have seen of Japanese pistols, they are boxed horizontally but upright, (not as in the West on their sides), or when displayed in houses or museums, on stands, again horizontally but upright. Matchlock pistols are so rare even in Japan, that I have never actually seen any on a rack, or even such a thing as a pistol rack itself for that matter.

 

Naturally what you say about pistols in the west rings true. I was so tempted by a 'flintlock of Nelson's navy' as the London dealer liked to call it. It had some numbers stamped upon it and must have lived in a locked cabinet to be handed out to a member of the crew before action. Battered and bruised and repaired all over, I would not be at all surprised if it had been used for cracking walnuts. :lol:

 

You are not going to try and make out it is a Mon after all, I hope. My whole lovely story would go down like the Concordia... :| and you don't know how many hours and days and weeks I have been gathering snippets. If it is a Kamon, everything goes back to square one. I am now beginning to think that the reason I was allowed to buy it in the first place is that no-one can come up with a suitable explanation for the silver disc. They know I enjoy a hunt, and rooting out truffles, so I must believe that they are allowing me to run with it for a while. If I can make a plausible story I will write it up in succint Japanese and see if they are interested in displaying it with the item at the exhibition. I can just see them saying "No!"

[IanB]

Piers, Far be it from me to do that to you. However, wrapping a well known kamon with the leaves or flowers of another kamon is not uncommon - See Eiyu Tasano Kamon where there are plenty of examples. However, Nobody seems to have wanted to wrap the Shimazu with anything. I have been through almost all my books on kamon and yours isn't there so you can keep breathing.

Ian

[Bugyotsuji]

Many thanks for the extended lease of life... I am now breathing a little more easily! :lol:

 

PS The actual gun that Kashiwagi is said to have used is still preserved in the Kawakami family of his immediate superior in the ranks, Kawakami Shirobei Tadae, and this gun is still given as a reference point for scholars, an example of a very rare but extant early(-ish) long gun.

[Bugyotsuji]

Forgive me for the further thoughts, but you could ask why the sudden warmth towards a lone sniper of 250 years before?

 

Well, this gun could have been made as a symbol of renewed hatred not so much for the foreign barbarian, (Nariakira Shimazu admired the West) but against anyone supporting weak-kneed rapprochement, and especially the Ii clan as Chief Minister of Japan Ii Naosuke pushed for opening Japan to the West, particularly with the signing of the Harris treaty in 1858. The Sakurada Gate incident has Arimura Jisaemon, another lone agent of Satsuma ganging up with the Mito Ronin, and cutting Ii Naomasa's neck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakuradamon_incident_(1860)

***The link is odd, the closing bracket gets left off; you may have to click again on the linked page.

 

Sadly for the gun story though, because as we gain love and respect for Kashiwagi, we correspondingly lose the strong connection with Bizen.

 

Unless... Nariakira's favorite target pistol of the 1840s was decorated in later years with a silver plate to celebrate how Kashiwagi had once killed a leader of the Ii family... (?) Did Shimazu see Western guns, Ian, and get the idea for the placement of the family silver?

[Brian]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakuradamon_incident_(1860)

***The link is odd, the closing bracket gets left off; you may have to click again on the linked page....

Some funny links resist the automatic resolving system.

In that case, just put the link between the forum tags which force the whole thing to be a link.

 

Brian

[Bugyotsuji]

I went back to edit the link as you suggested Brian, but the rejection carried this message: "It was not possible to determine the dimensions of the image."

[estcrh]

Some funny links resist the automatic resolving system.

In that case, just put the link between the forum tags which force the whole thing to be a link.

 

Brian

Brian, I think you meant to suggest the use of url tags not img tags.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakuradamon_incident_(1860)

 

An interesting time in Japanese history.

[Bugyotsuji]

Hey Eric, it worked! Many thanks.

 

(Brian gave me enough of a hint but I am pretty much useless when it comes to computer programming so I took it literally and simply gave up.)

[Brian]

Argh...see what 11 hour workdays does to you? LOL.

Yeah...I meant the tags. To display an image, put it between the tags.

Most links don't need it..they do it automatically. Only when you see a rare link that corrupts...edit and add the tags.

 

Brian

[Bugyotsuji]

The pistol will be going on display so the authorities have been working on the wording for it. "A Kagozutsu. Kago-zutsu were a symbol of wealth, carried like a Kago-yari in a Norimono Kago by a person of high status."

 

Sawada Taira Sensei says in his book, 'Nihon no Furu-ju' that it is doubtful whether such an object or word ever really existed. Then recently on one of his websites I noticed him describing a long pistol that he had acquired as a Kago-deppo. Hmmm...

 

Anyway I was told to take lots of photos as the gun will be sequestered until the middle of May. I will be handing it over this Sunday morning. Parting is grief. Here is a family group shot. The three closer guns are my regular workhorses for displays. From front:

1. 1.4 cm muzzle internal diameter cavalry Bajo-zutsu pistol circa 1615, Kunitomo, signed.

2. 1.7 cm, Kumamoto Castle armoury Gunyo-zutsu long gun, signed & dated 1847, Higo.

3. 2.1 cm, Tazuke Ryu O-zutsu, SasaLindo Ishikawa Mon, Kameyama, Ise. Mid Edo. Unsigned.

4. 1.0 cm, long pistol in Bizen/Satsuma crossover style. Late Edo. Bizen, signed.

 

Since this whole incident I have been pondering why virtually all guns from before 1600 'vanished' without trace or record. A series of explanations has since bubbled up.

[Bugyotsuji]

So here goes the theory. We know that tens of thousands of guns were manufactured and used at famous battles from 1550 till the end of the Muromachi. Many of these would have also been taken to Korea with Hideyoshi.

 

At first I imagined some kind of mass dumping at sea but that did not seem to fit any theory well.

 

Two things seemed to be strong candidates. One was the occasional round-up of weapons carried out in Japan, the most memorable perhaps being the Jinshin tagging in Meiji 5. If you think of Libya today with so many weapons in the hands of the various militias it becomes obvious why a central government would want to collect them all up. The Japanese tend to be good at doing things thoroughly in groups, as when all metal was expropriated during the Second World War. There is a suggestion that all old guns may have been collected for scrap metal and reuse in forges for new life as cannon etc.

[cabowen]

why would only the oldest have been recycled?

[Bugyotsuji]

Hand in hand with this would have been the attrition during battles. At each battle the losers would have dropped their guns as they were fleeing. "Who, me? I am just a simple peasant/farmer/merchant". At Sekigahara the Western army fled into the mountains and dropped their guns into the woods and streams as they ran. Much of the discarded weaponry was gathered up by the local populace and buried. Marker mounds were set up here and there all over that area, for both bodies and equipment. Quite possibly half of all remaining guns in Japan were lost at this one battle alone. And each time Japan was potentially united under a new ruler, eg Tokugawa Ieyasu, there would be a round-up and registry of all guns out there, and rules on numbers allowed for castle Daimyo. The battles at Osaka Castle and later at Shimabara would have been a magnet for every available gun, and in the aftermath more huge attrition. Were the rulers, and was the populace, finally allergic to guns, which had brought such horrors upon the nation? This would slot into Noel Perrin's ideas in "Giving up the Gun".

[Bugyotsuji]

why would only the oldest have been recycled?

 

I wonder. Swords and bows and spears had a long and venerated history. Perhaps guns did not fit into the idea of family heirloom. We know that Japanese people like knocking down old buildings and building anew. Maybe they were happy to hand them in. Perhaps the government had a clever way of controlling the production and sale of gunpowder, as today, which might have made guns redundant/useless. With laws on making new ones, then the gun stocks would have fallen rapidly. Sword production also fell off rapidly into Tokugawa times.

[uwe]

Hi Piers,

you mentioned "Jinshin". What does it mean? I`ve a teppo signet that way.

Uwe

[IanB]

Piers, You pose an interesting question. You are correct that many guns would be lost or destroyed as a result of battles but most would be collected up afterwards since they were valuable weapons and would certainly not be dumped or melted down. Don't forget the Tokugawa were paranoid about being challenged for many decades after Seki ga Hara. No doubt many guns ended up on racks in castles - I remember seeing racks for hundreds of guns at Hikone, but the Ii were Fudai Daimyo and it is natural they would be allowed to keep plenty. Although I have no proof, my guess would be that the Tokugawa would collect up as many guns as possible and stash them away in case of trouble, to arm the Tokugawa armies. Saris in his diary for 1613 mentions a vast Tokugawa force (many thousands) posted near Osaka and relieved each year by others whose task was to sweep into Osaka, Shikoku or Kyushu if trouble arose. No doubt such a force would be kept in-being during Hidetada's reign and possibly even Iemitsu - both of whom were terrified of a Portuguese / Japanese Christian alliance mounting a coup. There is also the fact that a lot of guns were decorated at a later date, and possibly restocked and generally re-furbished for use in parades and so on. Would we recognise these as being esentially old guns?

Ian Bottomley

[estcrh]

There is also the fact that a lot of guns were decorated at a later date, and possibly restocked and generally re-furbished for use in parades and so on. Would we recognise these as being esentially old guns?

Ian Bottomley

Were older ones signed and dated as the newer ones were or were they churned out for war.

[IanB]

Eric, A lot of guns aren't signed and I doubt that many of those made for mass orders would be. Also, unlike swordsmiths who have been recorded to death, although we know a lot of gunmaker's signatures, and Piers can correct me on this, I am not sure we know the dates when many of these guys worked.

The same situation applies to a lot of armour makers - so much armour is unsigned and so much was recycled in a new guise. This did not always mean the whole piece - they would break up old do and re-use the individual plates, even cutting them up to save having to forge new plates.

Ian

[Bugyotsuji]

Yes, Ian is correct. Very few early guns were signed, it seems, but very few even exist. Sawada Sensei mentions a couple from what he calls the 'Dark Age'. The oldest signed gun is in a temple in Kyoto, Daitoku Ji, and the date is written in sumi ink on one facet of the butt. Missing the lock, spring, serpentine section. The gun is called Kizo-toritsuki-ju. Tensho 19. In this case he thinks the gun may be genuine.

 

The barrel of the gun that allegedly killed Takeda Shingen in the first year of Tensho is kept in Shinshiro City, but for several reasons the story does not quite hold together. The barrel has '13 Monme' carved on the top, and evidence of some illegible characters underneath which 'show some similarities to Muromachi swordsmith signatures', but other aspects of the barrel suggest post-Keicho.

 

Uwe, "Jinshin" 壬申 indicates the zodiac name for the year and is the mark that was hammered into all guns above a certain caliber during the first post Edo general registration in Meiji 5, 1872. Usually there is a Ken (Prefecture) name and a number that was allotted to each gun. Many guns slipped through, so do not have it. If yours does, then it either one useful marker post for the gun's history, or a fake that has been added to give semblance of more age to a later gun. The latter (faked jinshin marks) are not so common, I believe, but it is good to be aware that they do exist.

[Bugyotsuji]

Ian, one thing that comes up is the heaviness of older guns. I have handled a few from around Keicho and for some reason they are staggeringly heavy for the relative narrowness of the caliber/bore. 20 monme guns should be easy to carry, but those older ones would definitely need two people or a gun carriage of some sort. In a time of repeated war perhaps earlier ones were built to withstand constant use without blowing up. Later refinements may have made greater bore for less weight possible.

[watsonmil]

Dear Piers,

I am at a loss to understand why you of all people would show a photograph of a VERY HEAVY GUN mounted on WHEELS. The gun obviously is not compatible to the carriage. There is nothing holding the gun to the carriage but for gravity. Next, ... elevation would be impossible, so the best one could hope for would be to shoot someone in the knees. Next, ... upon recoil the gun and carriage would become seperated by a considerable number of yards. I assume whomever thought up displaying this monster of a gun in this fashion is no longer working for the museum or collector but relagated to emptying trash cans, ... as it does nothing other than ridicule a very rare firearm.

... Ron Watson

[Bugyotsuji]

Apologies, Ron. You are absolutely right. The photo was merely an example of what wheels on a gun could look like, and no more. I have several more taken from different angles, and a close-up of the Mei, but that one kind of hid the damned spot behind the spokes!!! :D Now I wish I had added that caveat! This particular example is not attached in any way, but this kind of set-up was definitely used. I can include photos of old prints if you like, in fact I will go and find some now.

 

PS The guy was quickly decorating part of his new house as an artifact room and invited us round for a sneak preview. He himself has a fabulous collection of Menpo and Kawari-kabuto.

[watsonmil]

Dear Piers,

No need to hunt up the prints, ... I have a book showing Japanese CANNON mounted on wheels, .... but CANNONS not heavy hand operated guns. It must have taken a Hericulan Japanese man to have simply carried that monster let alone press the trigger ! My criticism was simply directed at the incorrectness of the mounting. Few of the NMB members have experience with any type of firearm little lone the complexities of the Japanese Tanegashima. We must be very careful in desiminating accurate information. Too many people take a picture as proof or as a true example of how things were used or put together. :D

... Ron Watson

[Bugyotsuji]

These pics are taken for educational purposes, from pages 31-37 of Sawada Taira's book book Koshiki-ju Nyumon　砲術士筒之部 「武道芸術秘傳図会注解」2001 Kobe

ISBN4-87787-072-5 c3021

 

Notice the O-zutsu tied to the axle with rope.

[Bugyotsuji]

These pics are taken by the author from an old book of gunnery warfare by a master gunner Ohmori Minamoto no Masatomi 正富 in 1855. The last one is how to deal with rain.

 

 

Heaven forbid that I should be leading the younger members astray!!!

[watsonmil]

Dear Piers,

I had not previously seen the book you took the pictures from, ... Perhaps it is I who overstepped the mark ( somewhat ) .

The photograph never the less gives an incorrect impression. Perhaps if your collector friend tied a bunch of rope around the gun and carriage he would come closer to the ARTISTS impression of how these monster O-Zutsu were employed. I am yet to be convinced.

... Ron Watson

[Bugyotsuji]

PS I am always amazed at how much detail you are able to pick up from a photograph, Ron. As a special treat, here is a close-up of the trigger, but how on earth did you know it would be hard to pull? The butt is so thick that the trigger is set markedly to the right side. (No good for lefties!)

[Bugyotsuji]

If you are yet to be convinced, Ron, then we are in the same boat! Food for thought, though... :lol:

 

PS The prints were run up by a famous war illustrator Ukiyo-e artist Utagawa Kuniyoshi, to show simply what the master gunner was describing. Each picture is an illustration of a page of written text. Next you'll be asking me to see what he actually said to justify such illustrations!

 

PPS The gun above has quite a story to it, but I can't remember the details right now. It was one of a famous set of four to defend the four corners of a castle somewhere, or it was a fifth that was discovered which proved the four-theory wrong... or somewhere-abouts. I'll double-check that. Always getting the tail-ends of conversations, and unwilling to stop the flow of chatter!

[watsonmil]

Dear Piers,

I must reluctantly admit defeat in our latest Tanegashima debate, ... the off set trigger is more for touching off the gun from the side rather from the more normal position of being somewhat behind and holding up the gun. This one piece of evidence has me more inclined to believe in the wheeled carriage ( rope tie down ) version depicted in the old Gunnery Books. Note also the hole through the trigger ( possibly for the attachment of a firing laynard ). ! VERY WELL DONE Piers ! I have indeed learned much tonight thanks to you .

... Ron Watson