Bugyotsuji Posted March 7, 2011 Author Report Posted March 7, 2011 Justin, many thanks for talking me thru that. Fantastic remote surgery. Let's try this now, Eric... Oh, BTW bronze was suggested to me today, Ron, but if so, quite unusual. Definitely has age to it, I was told, although it might not be a cannonball... (one antiques specialist opinion)
ububob Posted March 7, 2011 Report Posted March 7, 2011 Methinks it's a bit to out of round for a canon ball but perhaps it might have been used in a grape or cannister loading.
watsonmil Posted March 8, 2011 Report Posted March 8, 2011 Guys, Grape Shot, Cannister, Case Shot are all synonums, .... and all are either iron or lead. On rare occassions, .... a mixture of nails, stones, misc. metal fragments of whatever was available was muzzle loaded into cannon. This was usually a last resort when all other projectiles were used up and anti-personel at close range was in order. No one ever used exotic metals. Sorry to disappoint you, ... but if it isn't iron or lead it is not a cannon ball. ... Ron Watson
ububob Posted March 8, 2011 Report Posted March 8, 2011 Ron, I take your point and my small point is they are not synonymous and I say that as a veteran artilleryman of 22 years.
watsonmil Posted March 8, 2011 Report Posted March 8, 2011 Dear Bob, Please PM the real difference, .... there is no point in arguing packaging on the NMB. I too have a little experience with artillery. ... Ron Watson
estcrh Posted March 8, 2011 Report Posted March 8, 2011 While researching information on the source of the brass or bronze used in the making of a pair of so called conquistador stirrups I found some information on brass, bronze or copper shot being used in the Americas. I do not know how accurate it is though. The supposed source of metal for the stirrups alternated between coming from melted down cannon or bells. If I can find the info again I will post it.
Lorenzo Posted March 8, 2011 Report Posted March 8, 2011 Would it be a painted stone? :D if it's metal, don't trust only your magnet; It could be some low carbon content steel with some impurities turning it in a non magnetic alloy
sanjuro Posted March 8, 2011 Report Posted March 8, 2011 Hi All I usually dont comment in this thread because my area of expertise is outside of its usual boundaries. I do enjoy the thread however and read it religiously. Re this so called cannon ball.... I am no authority but all the cannon balls I have ever seen are at least spherical. The unused ones at least. whereas the used ones are only out of round in a lopsided way rather than in a lumpy way. This specimen is about as spherical as a hastily made snowball. Are we sure its a connonball at all? Incidentally, I have seen a couple of cannon balls in England that were hastily cast in looted pewter during the days of Cromwell but these were I think a pretty desperate last ditch effort by some out of supply artillery outfit. Definately an exception to the rule. They incidentally were spherical. Just an observation by an interested spectator...... OK thats enough from me lest I be tarred and feathered
IanB Posted March 8, 2011 Report Posted March 8, 2011 All, I've missed a lot of this having been occupied the last few days. What it may be is a ball from a grinding mill. About 8 years ago a number of similar balls turned up from an Indian source, one of which was brought to the Armouries. An examination showed it was wootz steel. Seems somebody got their hands on a pile and decided to make money out of them by claiming they were cannon balls. I suspect this is what it is. It could well be bronze - used in a bronze mill for grinding something that would ignite by sparking. Ian Bottomley
Ford Hallam Posted March 8, 2011 Report Posted March 8, 2011 Looks like a coprolite to me....dinosaur poop :D 1
Jean Posted March 8, 2011 Report Posted March 8, 2011 Looks like a coprolite to me Dung ♪ Dung ♪ Dung ♪ Probably for a coprophage cannon 1
Bugyotsuji Posted March 8, 2011 Author Report Posted March 8, 2011 Ha ha, now we are getting closer. Grinding stones to aid dinosaur digestion, bronze to prevent sparking of gas. Yes, I see it all now... PS Anyone want to buy a genuine cannonball? 100 Euros. 1
sanjuro Posted March 8, 2011 Report Posted March 8, 2011 Eric Its a relatively new grinding stone... They get smoother as time goes by, then a dinosaur eats them to aid in digestion at which time it poops them out and the British then harvest them and shoot the crap out of their colonial enemies with them. Does that about cover the possibilities????????? Sorry... couldn't resist the temptation to offer a comprehensive solution.... :D Just as a side observation, if dinosaurs ate rocks this size to aid in digestion then dinosaur flatulence would probably have been relatively dangerous.........
kusunokimasahige Posted March 8, 2011 Report Posted March 8, 2011 Well if this ball is Japanese, the next question would be where on the Japanese isles have there ever been dinosaur remains found.... KM
Jean Posted March 8, 2011 Report Posted March 8, 2011 if dinosaurs ate rocks this size to aid in digestion then dinosaur flatulence would probably have been relatively dangerous......... That's why I have given up eating green peas, buckshots are forbidden in France... Having all covered the subject, I suggest we come back to the original subject, as a Moderator is likely to censure our rambling thoughts
estcrh Posted March 8, 2011 Report Posted March 8, 2011 Copper and or brass shot? On March 3, 1836, Alamo commander William B. Travis requested six, nine, twelve, and eighteen pound shot. After the siege of Bexar (1835) the Texan forces seized arms and munitions that included a culverin (nine-inch caliber), a five-inch howitzer with no shells, 4 "large cannons," 3 guns (3, 4, and 6 pounders), swivel guns and other small ordnance, plus 26 stands and 19 bags of grapeshot, 216 bayonets, and 71 lances. The three pieces of grapeshot recovered at La Villita were slightly heavier than the "four-ounce copper balls" reportedly used at San Jacinto. Excavations at the Alamo revealed two-ounce and five-to-six-ounce bronze canister shot and grapeshot. For comparison, José Antonio Mexía brought canister shot from New Orleans for his Tampico expedition (1835) that consisted of two, four, eight, and sixteen ounce brass balls. Two of the four canister shot recovered at La Villita are impact-flattened; six of the thirty-four musket balls show evidence of firing, as well as two of the three pistol (or rifle) balls. http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/onli ... cles/bbl17
watsonmil Posted March 8, 2011 Report Posted March 8, 2011 Eric, Now that is interesting, .... that is the first I have read of Bronze being used as grape/cannister/case shot. Well there you go, ... as so often happens there are always exceptions. By the way, ... for those with inquisitive minds ( avid readers of the Enquirer no doubt ), ... as though it matters ... the technical difference between grape and cannister is the size of your balls, and the packaging. Grape shot is considered somewhat smaller than cannister but NOT necessarily musket ball size, .... in reality both are a load of shall we say Metal Balls ( normally iron ), .... the packaging is also somewhat different grape shot generally ( but not always ) contained in a bag, .... whereas cannister generally ( but not always ) contained in a thin metal can for ease of loading ( sometimes in lieu of the can, the balls are held together between thin sheets of wood of the correct barrel diameter ). Without going into a long drawn out treatise on ammunition it is generally accepted that anti-personel ( land use ) is most often called GRAPE, .... while anti-personel CARRIER or BUILDING ... eg. a SHIP ( Naval USE ) is called CASE or CANNISTER. Now to be more specific all this during the Black Powder era, .... as I am sure to be corrected that there exists today anti personel cannister as well. The bottom line is they are all balls and the difference in nomenclature is semantics. Piers, Although anything is possible, ... the chances of your metal ball being a cannon ball is not likely. For those who wish to delve into the NON Nihonto subject of Ammunition may I suggest : The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Ammunition by Ian V. Hogg. For those who wish to make this a MUST in their repitoir of knowledge may I suggest : The Technical Manual of Artillery Ammunition Guns, Howitzers, Mortars, Recoilless Rifles, Grenade Launchers, and Artillery Fuses : TM43-0001-28 Headquarters, Department of the Army Washington DC. ... Ron Watson PS. Just to satisfy my own curiosity I am trying to contact the Curator of the Alamo Museum to confirm the existence of the brass cannister or whether this is an error, ... as I am also quite confident that the idea of copper grape shot is in all likelyhood an error.
estcrh Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 Ron, someone had a lot of extra brass or bronze at one time, enough to make solid metal stirrups from them! I still have not heard a good explanation of were all the metal came from. http://www.google.com/images?rlz=1C1CHM ... 24&bih=513
Bugyotsuji Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Posted March 9, 2011 At the Alamo they were surrounded, and as in sieges all over the world, probably needed to use anything available. The original meaning of 'cannon fodder'? In Okinawa balls made of coral for pole-arm fire weapons have been found. A blunderbuss could be fed with rusty nails. The ideal material for a ball however must be stone, iron or lead. Ship's cannon were often made of bronze (edited) so as not to throw out the compass. I wonder if they had special non-magnetic ball stored nearby?
kusunokimasahige Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 Just a note about the origin, as stated above, many quickly made examples have been found during the centuries of people hurling things at one another in battle situations. On a few ancient Roman battlefields and camp sites, lead slingshot was found in the shape of thumbs and fingers, which indicate the ammo was running out and people decided to make their own by pressing their thumb in the sand and casting lead in the holes. To know what this one is made of, you should indeed scrape some of the metal off. However that of course would ruin some of it.... Does anyone on here have photos of Japanese bullets and or cannonballs ? A nice article on a Japanese small cannon can be found here: http://www.usaantiquesonline.com/featured_articles9.php KM
Justin Grant Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 Does anyone on here have photos of Japanese bullets and or cannonballs ? KM Photos from the Samurai Gallary (their spelling)
Bugyotsuji Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Posted March 9, 2011 The first pic above, Justin, shows 'Western bullets' according to the tag. :lol:
John A Stuart Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 Those look like the French bullets invented by Delvigne. Minié's bullets had gas rings and were a later improvement. Say, mid-ninteenth century produced. John
kusunokimasahige Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 I am wondering about the katakana PISUTON on the leather bag... Is that another word for pistol ? piston ? (which would make those balls ball bearings ??) I dont have my Kanji&Kana at hand nor my Kenkyusha so the rest i cant translate at the moment... KM
John A Stuart Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 Maybe it is miswritten, ピストル pisutoru, pistol 玉 tama, ball. ピストン pisuton, piston 玉 tama, ball. Pistol ball makes more sense for these unless piston ball is for air rifles that use pistons to charge an air receiver. Oh, I should mention that you can see the cast marks from the bullet molds and ball bearings are not cast. Ball bearings are ridiculously hard to make and would never be lead. John
watsonmil Posted March 10, 2011 Report Posted March 10, 2011 Dear All, If I might make a few corrections to the thread : PIERS said, .... " Ship's cannon were often made of bronze so as not to throw out the compass. I wonder if they had special non-magnetic ball stored nearby ? " Sorry Piers, ... but this is not quite correct. Bronze cannon had little if anything to do with avoidance of compass deviation, and everything to do with the fact that Iron Cannon were for quite sometime totally unreliable and much heavier than their brass counterpart up until the late sixteenth century. It was also previous to this time that Galley type ship, ... firing cannon from the bow was the fighting ship of the day. Not until 1501 did the French cut gunports in the hull of a ship allowing for the side mounted cannon of the Men-of-War or Round Ship. In the late sixteenth century the development by the English of cheap cast iron cannon which could now be produced in large numbers sealed the fate of the Galley as a viable gun platform, to be replaced by the Man-of-War Sailing Ship armed all round with IRON cannon instead of bow mounted expensive Bronze cannon. It was pure economics that led to the demise of the bronze cannon and the adoption of the iron cannon. One must remember that in order to have an effect on compass deviation the iron cannon would have to be quite near the compass, and as such were not allowed near the compass. Compass deviation was always a concern however and I quote : " Magnetic Deviation,” or the difference between Compass North and Magnetic North, was known but not understood. “Deviation” was caused by the natural magnetic fields of the often several hundred tons of ships’ iron ballast, cannons, shot, anchors, fixtures and fittings, etc. Since seamen of that time knew about but did not understand this form of compass variation, they just included “deviation” in “variation.” However, the officer of the watch knew that when the ship was under way he was never to wear his sword or his pistols near the compass binnacle. The above information from: Navigation and Logbooks in the Age of Sail by Peter Reaveley. ERIC : I am waiting on a call from the Curator of the Alamo Museum regarding the brass balls. To date he has not returned my telephone message. KM : A wonderful photo and link to a Japanese Cannon of high quality. JUSTIN : Balls are Balls, ... whether they be Japanese, European or North American. Only difference I have noted is a very slight difference in the spur, ... Japanese musket balls have a square spur whereas the others have a round spur. ... Ron Watson EDIT: As one of our members KM pointed out to me by PM .. in Europe .. Bronze was the more prevalent in Cannon construction, ... whereas I and others have been using the word Brass to the exclusion of Bronze. I'm pretty sure both were in use however.
estcrh Posted March 10, 2011 Report Posted March 10, 2011 Ron, please let us know if you can get an answer, and if you get a chance see if they have any idea were the brass-bronze was coming from, it must have been melted down from something.
John A Stuart Posted March 10, 2011 Report Posted March 10, 2011 Bronze Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin commonly used in 18th and 19th century artillery. Often mistakenly called brass. Brass versus Bronze BRASS: An alloy composed of copper and zinc and not suitable for ordnance. BRONZE: An alloy composed of copper and tin and definitely suitable for ordnance. Bronze A metal made of two or more pure metals (pure chemical elements), mixed and melted together, is called an alloy. Any alloy, or mixture, of copper and tin is called bronze. Many bronze alloys also contain small amounts of other materials. Bronze was one of the first alloys developed by metal workers in ancient times. The Mesopotamians ushered in the Age of Bronze about 4500 years ago. In the earliest fortified towns bronze was used for shields, helmets, and battle axes. 4000 years ago the Chinese made early coins of bronze. Bronze melts at a lower temperature than iron, reducing the manufacturing cost. Bronze is softer and weaker than iron, but bronze resists corrosion (especially seawater corrosion) and metal fatigue better than iron. Because it does not rust, bronze was preferred aboard ship or in seacoast forts. Originally "bronze" was a term for copper alloys having tin as the only or principal alloying element. In modern usage the name "Bronze" is seldom used alone, and a term such as "Phosphor Bronze" or "Aluminum Bronze" is used for identifying alloys of copper and tin with small amounts of other elements added to produce special characteristics. Brass or Bronze? As we prepare almost every issue of The Artilleryman Magazine the confusion of "brass" and "bronze" comes up in things written in an earlier time period when the terminology was incorrect, or by modern writers who don't know the difference. We recently came across this in Harold L. Peterson's Round Shot and Rammers (Bonanza Books, 1969): "In almost all the contemporary [18th and early 19th centuries] references the term used is brass. Bronze is almost never mentioned. Yet the alloy itself sometimes consisted only of copper and tin, which would make it bronze according to a modern definition..." The only brass guns were those made by the uninformed. All surviving antique cannon of a copper-based alloy are in fact "bronze." The actual definition of "gun metal" was 90 percent copper and 10 percent tin, which was the strongest of the various bronze alloys. — Submitted by Bill Anderson, 1st Continental Artillery Online source: Brass or Bronze?The NWTA Spy, Spring 2000 http://www.nwta.com/Spy/spring00/brass.html
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