Bugyotsuji Posted July 5, 2010 Author Report Posted July 5, 2010 Well, they look to have been hammered in and then the heads hammered flat so they cannot be pulled out again. But that's just imagination. The tag says 姫路城 Himeji Jo Periodically it undergoes inspection and renewal (big one happening right now) and this lot comes from an earlier such restoration, apparently.
Lee Bray Posted July 6, 2010 Report Posted July 6, 2010 I came across a small article in a US gun magazine from the 1960's and thought you guys might appreciate it.
estcrh Posted July 6, 2010 Report Posted July 6, 2010 I came across a small article in a US gun magazine from the 1960's and thought you guys might appreciate it. Lee, great stuff...those items are hidden away in someones collection now probably.
Bugyotsuji Posted July 6, 2010 Author Report Posted July 6, 2010 It's certainly a good-looking thing, but the article raises several questions. Japanese 'saki' (sic) was never contained in a bottle anything like that. Something Turkish or Persian perhaps. So, designed to look like an exotic import standing on the hall table in a new Meiji-style house? Well, maybe. As a handbell, for ringing for the servants? A soda/tonic water dispenser? :lol: Thanks for the post!
IanB Posted July 6, 2010 Report Posted July 6, 2010 Eric, No, nothing sinister. It is just a remarkable co-incidence that two identical dou to the one I have had for donkey's years should turn up within a couple of months. Clearly all three are from the same workshop, and probably by the same hand. This would be perfectly normal if they formed part of an order for a batch of armour, for say a bodyguard, but I don't think this is the case here since there are differences. Both mine and that sold in Australia have momonari kabuto, mine with a gold lacquered helmet bowl, the other black. That being sold in Japan has a suji kabuto, but with the same shape shikoro. Interestingly, the lacquer on my shikoro is brown rather than black like the dou - the Japanese one looks the same. The lacing is also the identical, a very pale blue and they both have plain dark blue hemp fabrics. I suspect they were built as ready-to-wear armours, but with differences for the customer to choose from. Ian
estcrh Posted July 8, 2010 Report Posted July 8, 2010 Eric, No, nothing sinister. It is just a remarkable co-incidence that two identical dou to the one I have had for donkey's years should turn up within a couple of months. Clearly all three are from the same workshop, and probably by the same hand. This would be perfectly normal if they formed part of an order for a batch of armour, for say a bodyguard, but I don't think this is the case here since there are differences. Both mine and that sold in Australia have momonari kabuto, mine with a gold lacquered helmet bowl, the other black. That being sold in Japan has a suji kabuto, but with the same shape shikoro. Interestingly, the lacquer on my shikoro is brown rather than black like the dou - the Japanese one looks the same. The lacing is also the identical, a very pale blue and they both have plain dark blue hemp fabrics. I suspect they were built as ready-to-wear armours, but with differences for the customer to choose from.Ian I was discussing with someone about the possibility of the Japanese having used a production line sort of method for manufacture on at least some types of armor and maybe even weapons rather than each piece being individually custom made...there is not a lot of info available on the armor and weapon workshops but it sure looks like this was done on some level by some people.
Bugyotsuji Posted July 8, 2010 Author Report Posted July 8, 2010 Just to add fuel to the general fire, here is a recent acquisition. A 'Rin' (?) singing bowl. It's a long story, but there is a shrine at the bottom of the garden and an old WWII vet (?) who comes to do his devotions every few days. In the past I did not mind, but this chap goes at it with a vengeance, raising his voice and whacking the wooden bell, tock... tock... tock.. Tock.. Tock.. Tock. TOCK. TOCK. in the evenings or even early on Sunday morning, without so much as a do-you-mind? Well now I am ready to do battle. Two nights ago he started up, so I picked up the iron rattle and started shaking it out of the tea-room window, "rattle-rattle-Ting, rattle-rattle-Ting..." and then, using the slightly larger of the two hammers, I dealt the 'Rin' Buddhist bowl bell an almighty whack. DONGGGGgggggg...ONG......ONG....ong...ong....ggggggggggg the reverberations went round and round and round.... As the ringing in my ears cleared I realized that the chap had stopped his evening prayers. (Oops, sorry) Violence by Buddhist instruments???
estcrh Posted July 8, 2010 Report Posted July 8, 2010 Just to add fuel to the general fire, here is a recent acquisition. A 'Rin' (?) It's a long story, but there is a shrine at the bottom of the garden and an old WWII vet (?) who comes to do his devotions every few days. In the past I did not mind, but this chap goes at it with a vengeance, raising his voice and whacking the wooden bell, tock... tock... tock.. Tock.. Tock.. Tock. TOCK. TOCK. in the evenings or even early on Sunday morning, without so much as a do-you-mind? Well now I am ready to do battle. Two nights ago he started up, so I picked up the iron rattle and started shaking it out of the tea-room window, "rattle-rattle-Ting, rattle-rattle-Ting..." and then, using the slightly larger of the two hammers, I dealt the 'Rin' Buddhist bowl bell an almighty whack. DONGGGGgggggg...ONG......ONG....ong...ong....ggggggggggg the reverberations went round and round and round.... As the ringing in my ears cleared I realized that the chap had stopped his evening prayers. (Oops, sorry) Never would have guessed that was a bell. I would gladly trade the unpleasant noises of your neighborhood for mine ( The French Quarter of New Orleans)
Bugyotsuji Posted July 8, 2010 Author Report Posted July 8, 2010 The French Quarter of New Orleans sounds interesting!
estcrh Posted July 8, 2010 Report Posted July 8, 2010 The French Quarter of New Orleans sounds interesting! Oh its interesting....thats an understatement.....I could use a nice Zen garden to meditate in from time to time...maybe a vacation trade?
Bugyotsuji Posted July 8, 2010 Author Report Posted July 8, 2010 The French Quarter of New Orleans sounds interesting! Oh its interesting....thats an understatement.....I could use a nice Zen garden to meditate in from time to time...maybe a vacation trade? Sounds good for me, but you'd get my wife...
Bugyotsuji Posted July 8, 2010 Author Report Posted July 8, 2010 Probably new is my first comment. There are only three known 'genuine' Kaiho (Nigiri-deppo) and they are already in museums in Japan, I was assured recently, although I saw another genuine one but in very poor condition last year. Took some quick photos of it. Many copies have subsequently been made. A certain famous character in Osaka had many of these recreated in bronze/brass and 'aged'. If it's brass, it's out on its ass. What is that one made of? (It has a comparatively good look to it, I must say, but possibly too good IMHO.) There is one place that needs to be checked first, though, the little concentric stepped chamber for the pellet. Because of this dodgy background, serious collectors in Japan won't touch them. Thus such examples go abroad, I have been assured, Eric. :| PS Found the photos
estcrh Posted July 8, 2010 Report Posted July 8, 2010 Probably new is my first comment. There are only three known 'genuine' Kaiho (Nigiri-deppo) and they are already in museums in Japan, I was assured recently, although I saw another genuine one but in very poor condition last year. Took some quick photos of it. Many copies have subsequently been made. A certain famous character in Osaka had many of these recreated in bronze/brass and 'aged'. If it's brass, it's out on its ass. What is that one made of? (It has a comparatively good look to it, I must say, but possibly too good IMHO.) There is one place that needs to be checked first, though, the little concentric stepped chamber for the pellet. Because of this dodgy background, serious collectors in Japan won't touch them. Thus such examples go abroad, I have been assured, Eric. :| This is who is selling it, I was just wondering what it was exactly. It looks a little like the "saki" gun that was posted recently. http://www14.plala.or.jp/kottoh-mononofu/sonota.htm
estcrh Posted July 8, 2010 Report Posted July 8, 2010 Probably new is my first comment. There are only three known 'genuine' Kaiho (Nigiri-deppo) and they are already in museums in Japan, I was assured recently, although I saw another genuine one but in very poor condition last year. Took some quick photos of it. Many copies have subsequently been made. A certain famous character in Osaka had many of these recreated in bronze/brass and 'aged'. If it's brass, it's out on its ass. What is that one made of? (It has a comparatively good look to it, I must say, but possibly too good IMHO.) There is one place that needs to be checked first, though, the little concentric stepped chamber for the pellet. Because of this dodgy background, serious collectors in Japan won't touch them. Thus such examples go abroad, I have been assured, Eric. :| PS Found the photos nice..well better a real one in bad shape then a fake one in good shape.
Bugyotsuji Posted July 8, 2010 Author Report Posted July 8, 2010 It's a funny thing, Eric, but just this month I have been inundated with requests like yours. Where have these come from all of a sudden??? Your link is the fourth. Now I have here a portfolio of photographs, but not because I even asked for them! Is some power trying to communicate something? A collector at the market last Sunday sidled up to me and started going on about Nigiri-deppo too. His theory was that they were used for signalling in the mountains! I had such a hard time escaping from him... :lol: PS Just noticed your link. His Kusari-gama is going for 350,000 JPY :eek: I sold a genuine one with date and Mei for 20,000 yen last year.
estcrh Posted July 8, 2010 Report Posted July 8, 2010 It's a funny thing, Eric, but just this month I have been inundated with requests like yours. Where have these come from all of a sudden??? Your link is the fourth. Now I have here a portfolio of photographs, but not because I even asked for them! Is some power trying to communicate something? A collector at the market last Sunday sidled up to me and started going on about Nigiri-deppo too. His theory was that they were used for signalling in the mountains! I had such a hard time escaping from him... :lol: PS Just noticed your link. His Kusari-gama is going for 350,000 JPY :eek: I sold a genuine one with date and Mei for 20,000 yen last year. Well Piers, if its expensive it must be valuable....much like the so called "cannon" gun barrel museum piece I posted a picture of. These strange items keep popping up and its hard to tell the real ones from the fake ones and unfortunately some of them are real..you just cant tell which ones with out a lot of experience.
Brian Posted July 8, 2010 Report Posted July 8, 2010 Sorry to go off topic folks, but I have had one or 2 requests that I agree with..and thought I would mention it... Please don't use the "reply with quote" button every time. We don't really need the previous post reposted every time you are replying. If the topic you are replying to is near yours, and people don't need the reminder, then please just use "reply" and not quote the last post. Thanks for your understanding, I see this hapening a lot everywhere. Brian
Bugyotsuji Posted July 11, 2010 Author Report Posted July 11, 2010 Thanks Brian. I have noticed that when you quote the other person you can then delete most of the quote except for the one phrase or sentence that you are replying to. Yesterday I found myself in Fukuyama Castle Museum where they have a very good display of Kokuho swords, if anyone is in the area. Not a great many, but of very high quality. Unfortunately the exhibition will close on the 19th July. 300 yen. http://www.city.fukuyama.hiroshima.jp/f ... index.html http://www.city.fukuyama.hiroshima.jp/f ... nglish.htm Last night at the study group we had two Shinshinto, a Suishinshi Masahide, (Osaka), a Chikuzen no Kami Nobuhide, (disciple of Kiyomaro), and then a Tenbun/Eiroku Harima Akashi Yoshinaga who came from Bizen and retained many characteristics of Sue BIzen. To tell you the truth swords put huge pressure on my tiny brain cells. Two things happen at these study groups. One, I feel my own shortcomings in a painful way and wish to escape or hide. Two, by some miracle when I really concentrate, I get glimmers of understanding and just occasionally my hunches work out. Since I don't read, study or do my homework in the way that we are recommended and many of my fellow students actually do, my progress is slow or non-existent, so I spend half of my available energy questioning my own motivation/existence. Even so, I continue to hope that some sprinkling of knowledge will rub off on me. I know it helps if you have a photographic memory, but I am constantly amazed at the ability of some of these people to allow names and dates and blade details to trip lightly off their tongue.
watsonmil Posted July 11, 2010 Report Posted July 11, 2010 Dear Piers, Just remember : The definition of an expert .... Someone who knows more and more about less and less :D . That my friend should make you feel better. ... Ron Watson
Bugyotsuji Posted July 11, 2010 Author Report Posted July 11, 2010 Well, thank you Ron. It sounds good, and it would be such a temptation to believe it! :lol:
watsonmil Posted July 13, 2010 Report Posted July 13, 2010 Dear Piers & Others, On July 07, Piers posted a picture of a Buddhist Bowl Bell. I 've been anxiously waiting for my son to come with his camera, ... so that I might add an item to this wonderful thread .. " Edo Corner " .. Many years ago, I was asked to clean up the contents of an old building here in the town where I live. The upstairs floor of the old building had been a meeting room for a turn of the century ... 1880's - early 1900's Secret Society Club. The main floor had been a Drug Store ( Pharmacy ). Being an antique dealer ... I was quite excited, ... and I eagerly got to work collecting up many fine antiques from the cellar ( mostly antique druggist paraphernalia ). The real excitement awaited my wife and I in the upstairs however, ... There was basically an empty room which had been used for storage, ... but also for the early Society meetings. There was one room separate from the main open area, ... and this was padlocked. Having permission to salvage what I wanted, ... I pried off the hasp, and opened the door to what had not been seen for nearly 75 years. Beneath grotesque masks, ... costumes, ... and papers was a black wooden coffin. Thinking this was unusual, ... but no more than the masks and other items, ... sitting on the coffin lid covered in dust was what appeared to be a brass bowl, .... which turned out to be a Japanese bowl bell. We opened the lid. Christ it contained a skeleton ( honest to God a bloody skeleton ) and real. To make a very long story a little shorter, ... after the initial shock, .... I realized this skeleton was part and parcel of the society rituals. I later confirmed this to be true when among the papers was a catalogue dating from the 1890's wherein, ... you could actually order a real human skeleton among other items such as imitation Roman Helmets, Masks, etc. Anyways the coffin and coffin contents were duly reported to the owner of the building. As far as I know the skeleton was donated to a University. The bowl turned out to be one of the most beautiful Antique Japanese Bowl Bells I have ever seen. It had a suspension hole in it, ... and I mounted it as pictured. The bowl is hammer raised ( many hundreds of hammer marks are visible on the inside ). The metal appears to be an alloy of brass or bronze. The dragon is incised either by hand or possibly acid etched. I think it is probably all hand cut rather than done with acid, ... but the detail is so remarkable and extensive and yet it is hard to imagine someone doing thousands of dragon scales by hand ! The bowl ( bell ) is 6 inches in diameter, the height is 2 5/8 inches high. Note the three toed dragon, ... indicating Japanese. When struck with the wooden mallet, ... the ring is very beautiful and loud. The use of the various patinas alone is superb workmanship. All in all it is very fine and worthy I think the most discriminating of tastes. I consider it one of my favorite pieces. I hope you all enjoy it as well. Submitted for the enjoyment of the NMB membership ... Ron Watson
Bugyotsuji Posted July 13, 2010 Author Report Posted July 13, 2010 That is absolutely beautiful, Ron. Many thanks for posting. About three weeks ago on Japanese television they showed a documentary on how these ringing bells are made. Starting with a flat block of metal the artisan started to hammer it out over the days and weeks. Hundreds, thousands of blows, gradually extruding it out to an even thinness for purity of sound. They said that a large completed singing bowl will have had 120,000 hammer strikes into it. And then you have the dragon design besides. Magnificent.
Bugyotsuji Posted July 20, 2010 Author Report Posted July 20, 2010 Well, it has been a week and much water has flowed under the bridges, some of which have been washed away here in Japan. The rainy season has now been declared officially over, but it was a harsh one, with 10 people killed and more missing in the flash-floods. :| For me the big news was a phone call announcing that we have been invited to Portugal in November to do a matchlock display there for their Japan Week, marking the link that was made when 'Portuguese' guns arrived in Tanegashima in 1543. Only later did I begin to think about the logistics involved in such an undertaking. Getting the time off work, and considering the costs involved, and the movement of all that kit and clobber... aaarrrggghhh...
watsonmil Posted July 20, 2010 Report Posted July 20, 2010 Dear Piers, Portugal, ... now that will creat some logistical fun ! Hope all turns out for your troop. No one invites me . Hope the Portugese are footing the bill ! It would be an excellent promotion for the historical interest it will/would kindle. ... Ron Watson
estcrh Posted July 20, 2010 Report Posted July 20, 2010 Ron, your bell is one of those things that someone might not even recognize without the stand. Great story..I second your opinion..the Portuguese would be quite lucky to have Piers and company show up. Sounds like a permit nightmare. I for one would love to see them come to the U.S. I would chip in for that!
Brian Posted July 20, 2010 Report Posted July 20, 2010 Piers, What are the logistics involved? In other words, do any tanegashima have to be exported and then re-imported, or is there some kind of temporary export permit? Brian
Bugyotsuji Posted July 21, 2010 Author Report Posted July 21, 2010 Trust you Brian, to come up with the weighty million-dollar question. :lol: Unable to answer your question I went round to have lunch with the powers-that-be and tried to discover the latest state of play. Typically there is no more, or very little more hard info at the moment. Somewhere between 1,000 and 1,500 people on average fly from Japan each year to do these Japan Weeks in various countries around the globe. Logistics would mean filling a suitcase with a set of armour/armor and accoutrements, and then attaching wheels to one end of one's big gun box for ease of porterage. Clothing and accessories for every day to be kept to a bare minimum, eg shoulder bag. We would take the Shinkansen first thing in the morning, hoping to catch an afternoon flight from Narita, where we would be given a Temporary Deregistration Certificate for the guns, to be exchanged on the way back for the original, I am hoping. Black powder will be provided in Portugal. Asked about cleaning the guns after the display, but they shrugged and said 'sho-ga-nai, probably back in Japan...' My hotel bath will have some nasty black rings for the cleaners, I suspect.
IanB Posted July 21, 2010 Report Posted July 21, 2010 Piers, A couple of years ago a similar group to your own came to the Royal Armouries. Since I was not involved in any way with them, I cannot tell you who they were or much else about them. I do remember they had been thwarted by the UK black-powder laws and for most demonstrations had to shout 'BANG' at the appropriate point in their routine. Ian Bottomley
Bugyotsuji Posted July 21, 2010 Author Report Posted July 21, 2010 Ian, according to this page, the Ashikita group from Kyushu mention they did their act at the tower of London and in Leeds. http://4travel.jp/traveler/minikuma/pict/18607415/ I know one other group has been to Australia. We nearly went to Hawaii a couple of years ago, but again these things are so heavy and then you have the local regulations which can prove problematical. Sorry to hear about the blackpowder law. I wonder what the problem was, as I have definitely fired blackpowder at Bisley. Half-way down this page you can see them firing at the Tower of London, and... at least one shot at Leeds??? http://www.yoroi.co.jp/topics/2009/ashikita.html
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