This Week's Edo Period Corner

[estcrh]

Eric, Wow that is an oddball. You certainly find them. My first thought was that it looks as if it has been made from a European bayonet of some type. I am guessing a length of about 20" or so? You have me there.

Ian Bottomley

Ian, its amazing how much free time one has to explore the internet for oddities when your employment used to be in the field of real estate investment!!! The nagasa is 17 inch, as you can see the 2 (cutting) edges are actually flat and the spine is rounded, no sharp edges at all, but if someone did not know this and could not look at it closely they would have assumed that they were up against a deadly weapon, in fact someone went to a lot of trouble to make this look just like a sword from the outside appearance of the saya and tuska, and if it was pulled out it would appear to be a yari wakizashi. The blade is very strong with no chance of bending at all due to the added spine...and yet not lethal..unless you used a lot of effort. "You have me there" I never thought I would here that...actually I believe we were discussing the existence of just such a weapon a while back, at least I believe this is an example of what we were talking about.

[Basho12]

It almost looks like it was made from a cut-down epee blade. I've seen that triangle cross-section on modern fencing weapons.

[John A Stuart]

I have a few smallswords that have the same triangular blade, but, the forte is more narrow. The transitional rapier had a wider forte similar to this. The smallsword has a sharpened foible. I don't recall the thread Eric refers to. The way this blade has been made with blunt edges does, however, remind me of the large sword-like skewers for roasting meat over the fire. John

[estcrh]

I have a few smallswords that have the same triangular blade, but, the forte is more narrow. The transitional rapier had a wider forte similar to this. The smallsword has a sharpened foible. I don't recall the thread Eric refers to. The way this blade has been made with blunt edges does, however, remind me of the large sword-like skewers for roasting meat over the fire. John

John, the blade may have been based on a European design or even a foreign blade adapted for use, but I was more interested in why someone would go to the expense and trouble to make something like this and what its intended use was...certainly not for dueling or roasting meat...it does like a giant shish kabob skewer though

[loui]

Hi Gents,

 

A friend brought this over the other day, not quite sure what it is, we were thinking a ranma at first but this is a little different I think. It mounts from the side with wooden pegs. Any ideas what this is?

[Bugyotsuji]

Many have looked but no-one has answered. A mystery indeed. Originally one of a pair? Part of a ship's

decoration? Part of a Ranma as you suggest? Something from a temple or shrine that has been

refurbished? Gosh... a nice thing to have, though.

 

While we wait for further comments, I have two contributions this week. Both are questions. Number one

is a a combination. I know the answer to part a), but not the answer to b)...

1. a) What do these two Jingasa photos have in common?

b) What does the answer in a) tell us?

[Bugyotsuji]

While everyone is considering the Ranma (?) and Jingasa above, here is Question 2. I know the answer

to this, but think of it as a test of your Japanese Kanji reading ability. If it's easy for you, please hold

off until others have tried!

 

Question 2. What is in the glass jars, and how are they the same or different?

Some piccies here to give you a hint

http://www.ed.city.shiso.hyogo.jp/school/chikusa-jhs/student/second/tatara/tatara.html

[Bugyotsuji]

Ladies & Gents, post your answers! (any hints needed?)

[John A Stuart]

Hi Piers, Did I wait long enough? :lol:

鉄砲砂鉄

刀剣砂鉄

 

Grades of iron sand- left for iron cannon, right for sword steel

 

John

[Bugyotsuji]

John, you're blazing the way forwards!

[estcrh]

Ladies & Gents, post your answers! (any hints needed?)

Piers, Im waiting for that hint.

[Bugyotsuji]

Apologies, Eric, my brain has been in an altered state. Hint, you say?

 

How many Jingasa do you see?

 

The two jars:

The left one is from the iron sands beach at Tanegashima where the first guns arrived in Japan

and the first Japanese guns were made.

The right is from iron-rich river sand in Hyogo, not far east of Bizen, from which Nihonto bladed

weapons were made.

[estcrh]

Apologies, Eric, my brain has been in an altered state. Hint, you say?

 

How many Jingasa do you see?

 

The two jars:

The left one is from the iron sands beach at Tanegashima where the first guns arrived in Japan

and the first Japanese guns were made.

The right is from iron-rich river sand in Hyogo, not far east of Bizen, from which Nihonto bladed

weapons were made.

Piers, I thought that what they had in common was that they both look to be in to good of a condition...but your saying that they were made from 2 different sources of iron?

[Bugyotsuji]

Eric, the two glass bottles with the two iron sands were one question. The answer is mostly out now.

 

The Jingasa (conical hat) trick has yet to be solved!

To repeat, how many hats can you see? :D

 

("They" look to be in good condition because a) you cannot see the repairs, and b) I polished "them" with some magical gunk...) :lol:

[John A Stuart]

One jingasa, two mon. One is Hosokawa and the other Murakami. John

[Nobody]

... I thought that what they had in common was that they both look to be in to good of a condition...

I think that there is only one jingasa which has two crests on it. They are Maru-ni-Ue-no-ji (丸に上の字) and Kuyo (九曜). The first one seems to belong to Murakami-suigun (村上水軍). Is the Kuyo-mon connected to some branchs from Murakami-suigun family?

[Bugyotsuji]

One jingasa, two mon. One is Hosokawa and the other Murakami. John

 

Thank you John! Yes, that brings on my next harder question. Who would have had an Omote Mon and an Ura Mon in combination like this? Hoping someone can help, as for sure I do not know.

 

Oh, and thanks to Koichi sama too!

 

PS Kuyo-Mon was used not only by Hosokawa, John, so 'Hosokawa' is not a given, especially if it is an Ura Mon.

[John A Stuart]

The Murakami clan of Shinano (this kamon) were Mori of Aki allies and were driven to Echigo by the Takeda clan in 1553. This was an Uesugi domain and both clans became retainers of Oda Nobunaga and then Toyotomi Hideyoshi. The Hosokawa clan was also retainers of Oda and susequently of Toyotomi. The Murakami and Hosokawa supported the son of Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Toyotomi Hideyari under the command of Mitsunari and after the defeat at Sekigahara the Uesugi and Hosokawa were Tozama Daimyo retainers of Tokugawa Ieyasu. The Murakami samurai as retainers may have been seconded to the Hosokawa samurai under Uesugi Kagekatsu and the two kamon worn to show this force. I do not have specific info if this was the case, but, ...? The jingasa's age may be 1600 era!!?? I find no other relationship. John

[Bugyotsuji]

Much appreciated, John. Wow, it's complicated isn't it! Now I am looking at this Jingasa in a new light! (It's got very tatty straw bolsters and drawstrings underneath) :lol:

[John A Stuart]

Just one error, although significant. I forgot that Akechi Mitsuhide, who betrayed Oda Nobunaga, had a daughter Tama (Gracia) who was married to Hosokawa Tadaoki a confidant of Toyotomi Hidetsugu. This put him at the mercy of Tokugawa Ieyasu and later befriended him and was in the Tokugawa forces at Sekigahara, leading 5,000 men in the Tokugawa vanguard. It is indeed really hard to keep up with shifting alliances in the timeline. So, the jingasa may be from a later period. John

[Bugyotsuji]

John, it's in my study at work. I'll go back and have a closer look and see if it is obvious, from the bindings, which is the front and which is the back. The person who had it before me several years ago said it was a Teppo-tai (musketeer's) Jingasa. I've always wondered about it. In fact I had sort of imagined it might be from Saigo Takamori's Satsuma Rebellion.

[estcrh]

Eric, You must read Perrin's book called 'Giving up the Gun'. Far from going mad over guns, the Tokugawa rounded up the gunmakers from the various han and set them up in Nagahama (those in Sakai being already under their control). They then only allowed orders that the Teppo Bugyo agreed to, effectively reducing them to almost nothing. They also granted small pensions to the defunct gunmakers to try and stop them running off to their original places of work. By the mid 1700's the trade was all but dead apart from odd orders by the Tokugawa themselves.

Ian Bottomley

Ian, I just read Perrin's book Giving Up the Gun..great suggestion. I purchased a copy used from Amazon for less than $6 and it has a lot of good information on samurai history in general and especially on why and how the Japanese were able to reverse their use of firearms. Thanks

[Bugyotsuji]

Here is the Jingasa from inside. It is not obvious, to me anyway, which was the front and which was the back. Perhaps it was designed to be worn depending on the day and who was leading!!!

 

Just been shown a pair of magnificent matchlock pistols by Kunitomo Ikkansai, the go-between for the Tokugawas and the smiths of Kunitomo. They were once worth 60,000 USD before the bubble.

As I will post over on Ron's other thread in a minute, I was surprised to see the triggers were loops, just like his gun, which I had supposed was a feature of Sendai guns. They both had Hi-keshi-ana snuffers very like my long gun, so these pistols must be fairly late Edo, if our logic holds.

[Jean]

They were once worth 60,000 USD before the bubble.

 

And now Pierce? from the syntax used, it must mean that they have increased in price.

[Bugyotsuji]

They were once worth 60,000 USD before the bubble.

 

And now Pierce? from the syntax used, it must mean that they have increased in price.

 

No Jean, I didn't ask, but from the context and tone of voice I believe they must be cheaper.

[Jean]

Hi Pears,

 

Ok, I understand better, It was meaning "cheaper after the bubble exploded" and not "before the bubble"

[Bugyotsuji]

Came across these matchlock accoutrements/accouterments about three weeks ago, but since they are not of high quality I hadn't really considered posting them. Just out of interest, then, as something to feed the thread, here they are. As you can see, there are two loops of greasy blackened rope.

 

One loop has a simple eyed spike hanging from it, probably for opening the type of Bisen breech screw having a transverse hole through the head. Perhaps for a peg on a wall upright.

 

The other has four wooden Hayago apostles, attached separately by both body and plug, and a spanner type Bisen opener for those with no hole. For the neck. There were a couple of other Hayago in the box and a small leather pouch, probably for a striker, iron or flint. Varying condition.

 

The plugs are made of tightly-wrapped cloth. For how long would these stoppers have kept the powder dry in bad weather?

 

Quite rustic, but look as they they lived a long and useful life. Hoping that by viewing, you may get some insight, or a flavor/flavour of their cultural background. Are they military or for hunting guns? The internal size of the Bisen spanner suggests one gun at least had quite a large caliber.

[estcrh]

Came across these matchlock accoutrements/accouterments about three weeks ago, but since they are not of high quality I hadn't really considered posting them. Just out of interest, then, as something to feed the thread, here they are. As you can see, there are two loops of greasy blackened rope.

 

One loop has a simple eyed spike hanging from it, probably for opening the type of Bisen breech screw having a transverse hole through the head. Perhaps for a peg on a wall upright.

 

The other has four wooden Hayago apostles, attached separately by both body and plug, and a spanner type Bisen opener for those with no hole. For the neck. There were a couple of other Hayago in the box and a small leather pouch, probably for a striker, iron or flint. Varying condition.

 

The plugs are made of tightly-wrapped cloth. For how long would these stoppers have kept the powder dry in bad weather?

 

Quite rustic, but look as they they lived a long and useful life. Hoping that by viewing, you may get some insight, or a flavor/flavour of their cultural background. Are they military or for hunting guns? The internal size of the Bisen spanner suggests one gun at least had quite a large caliber.

Sometimes the so called "low quality" items are more interesting to me...I cant tell you how many times I see some little item like these and wonder what it was. What exactly is a bisen, and a hayago is for storing powder?

[Bugyotsuji]

Eric, yes, the Hayago were sometimes called apostles in English. You could pre-pack these early cartridges with a known amount of powder and ball in the lull before action, and they could be used over and over subsequently.

 

Most Japanese Tanegashima matchlocks have a big fat screw that sits in the back of the barrel. It is called a Bisen. You can remove it for easy cleaning of the bore, once you can untighten it. They lock up after a few shots, with powder residue etc. and can be tough to open without a key of some sort.

 

PS You can see my Bisen removed, about 1/3 of the way down the below page of this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2554&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=90

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Are they military or for hunting guns? The internal size of the Bisen spanner suggests one gun at least had quite a large caliber.

 

Piers, this is interesting. Were there "average" quality (matching the quality of the item in question) firearms for hunting as well ?