This Week's Edo Period Corner

[Bugyotsuji]

As long as the touch-hole was on top. The depression would then act as a guide for the wire to slide easily into the hole in the heat of battle. The holes above look too fine and too abrupt. I have one of these guns myself which you can see below. It's so badly rusted that I think it has little value. One of the touchholes has rusted away and grown enormously. One of the chambers was blocked with something extremely hard, but by dint of scraping with an awl I managed to get it all out. It fizzles when lit, so I am assuming an early type of gunpowder. I still keep this in a film case, and once even took it to a university for analysis, but unable to find the right person to do this, I gave up. A project for a rainy day perhaps.

 

Ian thinks it might be Korean, but I think my example is larger than the Korean ones he described. He might be right, but there are two or three reasons why I still lean towards a Chinese source for this one. Two thirds of the way down this page, Eric you'll see a photo of a 'genuine' one that I took in the viewing closet at Yasukuni Jinja some years ago. This has been there for well over 100 years, I believe. Below that photo you can see mine, but it looks smaller than it is in that photo. I'll take some closer ones if you like.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2414&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=three+barrelled+Chinese+gun&start=15

[estcrh]

As long as the touch-hole was on top. The depression would then act as a guide for the wire to slide easily into the hole in the heat of battle. The holes above look too fine and too abrupt. I have one of these guns myself which you can see below. It's so badly rusted that I think it has little value. One of the touchholes has rusted away and grown enormously. One of the chambers was blocked with something extremely hard, but by dint of scraping with an awl I managed to get it all out. It fizzles when lit, so I am assuming an early type of gunpowder. I still keep this in a film case, and once even took it to a university for analysis, but unable to find the right person to do this, I gave up. A project for a rainy day perhaps.

 

Ian thinks it might be Korean, but I think my example is larger than the Korean ones he described. He might be right, but there are two or three reasons why I still lean towards a Chinese source for this one. Two thirds of the way down this page, Eric you'll see a photo of a 'genuine' one that I took in the viewing closet at Yasukuni Jinja some years ago. This has been there for well over 100 years, I believe. Below that photo you can see mine, but it looks smaller than it is in that photo. I'll take some closer ones if you like.

Piers, I do not see any photos, but yes, its an interesting subject so if you have any I would like to save them for future reference, thanks

[Bugyotsuji]

Oops, there you go! See above again!

[estcrh]

Here we have a fantastic and unique iron Chinese Triple Barrel Handgonne in pristine condition! It is NOT made of brass or bronze! This rare find is 13.75 inches long (35 cm). The weight is approximately 6 lbs. and the bore sizes are between 17 and 18 mm. This cannon was in use for 300 to 400 years! The nipples were filled with a fine flash powder and a waxy paper was placed over each nipple to keep the powder from leaking out. A punk stick was then used to set off the charge. Originally, some of these fired by inserting a red hot wire in the touch hole! Believed to be a 16/17th Century antiquity, almost impossible to find in this condition. NOT sea salvage. An early step towards superior firepower. from>>. http://www.handgonne.com/gonne_7.html Some interesting pictures on this site including what is supposed to be a Korean multi shot one. I cant believe that the Japanese did not pick up this technology from their neighbors.

[Bugyotsuji]

Eric, I think you have found one of the ones I was describing earlier with the long nipples, the one I was warned about by a top gun expert in Japan as having been made in China recently. I do not really want to take this as far as you want to go as there are people out there who may not be pleased with what is being said. It was made with extra strengthening, against claims for damages in case anyone might be tempted to try and fire it, I was advised.

 

PS Look at the Korean 'pepperbox/pepperpot' type gun at the bottom of that page you have just posted for comparison with the earlier gun you posted.

[IanB]

All, The image of the European gunner touching off a gun with a hot wire is a slightly different kettle of fish. He is taking part in a siege and is therefore static. He will have a brazier or some such fire to get his bit of iron hot. Sadly you cannot do that with a handgun unless you are standing still - it has to be match if you are mobile. I agree with Jean that had this been a real gun there would need to be a touch hole for each barrel. The exception to this are the 7 barrelled volley guns made by Durs Egg for the British navy. These fire all barrels at once and have interconnecting vents between the barrels to achieve this. The barrel cluster is made up from separate tubes that enabled this to be done. They were a useless idea in reality since although you could rake the enemy's decks with one shot, it took 7 times as long to load as a single shot gun (never mind the recoil).

Yes, it would be good to have early examples of definite provenance that would allow us to work out just what was happening as the gun was developing.Sadly early guns soon became regarded as so much scrap iron and were discarded. Much of what we have was found in castle moats and in similar situations. Manuscripts can also be confusing. What is regarded as the first diagram of a snapping matchlock mechanism, drawn by a gunner from the Palatinate of the Rhine, is in my opinion a crossbow lock with critical elements omitted to keep the secret.

Ian Bottomley

[estcrh]

Eric, I think you have found one of the ones I was describing earlier with the long nipples, the one I was warned about by a top gun expert in Japan as having been made in China recently. I do not really want to take this as far as you want to go as there are people out there who may not be pleased with what is being said. It was made with extra strengthening, against claims for damages in case anyone might be tempted to try and fire it, I was advised.

 

PS Look at the Korean 'pepperbox/pepperpot' type gun at the bottom of that page you have just posted for comparison with the earlier gun you posted.

Here is another one which looks even more modern, very confusing.

 

This interesting little piece is part of a collection of antique Chinese iron pole cannons. There seems to be little available information on these curious antiques but I was able to locate one in the Hong Kong Military Museum. These types of cannons are typically attributed to the 17th through the 19th centuries. They come in all shapes and sizes. It would have been attached to a wooden pole and used for firing bullets or signals of sort. This piece is relatively small (about 16 cm in length) and weighs about 1354 grams. It has five separate barrels that are roughly 9mm in diameter. The touch holes are fused closed. from>>> http://www.trocadero.com/pricelesspast/ ... 59218.html

[Bugyotsuji]

There is a picture in a Chinese source manuscript 神器譜　showing a horse-rider about to fire one of these three-barrelled pole-arm jobbies which is held under his right arm. The gun itself is resting on his left hand, above the horse's head. He is holding some kind of small block/handle (?) in his right hand with a wire/string protruding from it, leaning slightly forward as if to insert this into a touch-hole. I will post the pic if it helps. I used to wonder if he had a burning match, or if a wire, some kind of brazier hanging from the horse's flank (not visible in the drawing). The horse is galloping along, the reins draped over the saddle. The Mongols were able to do anything on a horse, including having sex and giving birth.

[Bugyotsuji]

Took some pics just now from various sources, but mostly from Sawada Taira Sensei's materials.

He says they are illustrated in a Chinese Ms of 1597, but not in an Ms of 1587. He concludes they were manufactured around 1592.

[Bugyotsuji]

The warning letter I had from a famous scholar illustrating a fake. I have taken photos from his photos.

[Bugyotsuji]

Then some pics of mine, which is smaller than I had remembered. Maybe Ian is correct and it is Korean!!! :lol:

[IanB]

A good source of material on this subject, including translations of early Chinese texts is Needham's 'Science and Civilization in China' Vol V parts 6 and 7. He goes into great detail on early guns, mines, rockets and all the rest. The problem lies with the fact that many of these texts were written donkey's years after the events, being considered state secrets and hence not for publication at the time. There is also a considerable gap between these early 'hand gonnes' and the later matchlocks with proper locks. It is possible that further information will come to light in due course, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

Ian

[estcrh]

A good source of material on this subject, including translations of early Chinese texts is Needham's 'Science and Civilization in China' Vol V parts 6 and 7. He goes into great detail on early guns, mines, rockets and all the rest. The problem lies with the fact that many of these texts were written donkey's years after the events, being considered state secrets and hence not for publication at the time. There is also a considerable gap between these early 'hand gonnes' and the later matchlocks with proper locks. It is possible that further information will come to light in due course, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

Ian

Really great info, Piers and everyone else also, I appreciate it.

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks Eric. There is really so little information as Ian says, but we still have this thirst for knowledge, this drive to connect up the dotted lines. Thanks to Ian for the heads-up on Needham's Science & Civilization in China, Vol V, parts 6 & 7 . I very much hope to see this book one day.

 

Hope you can 'see' a little better what looks genuine and what looks fake now. Since genuine ones are almost impossible to export, there will be a lucrative market for imitations and these will not be illegal. Caveat Emptor.

[MrJones]

Argh! I bury myself in database and things for two days and the thread's gone off on a tangent! Oh well.

 

Piers, I'm amazed to see that many re-enactors in one place, let alone that many with working guns! I can just imagine what the police would say around these parts. But still, I'm even more pleased to see that you shoot yourself, so I can get it from the horse's mouth: how are these Japanese guns? How do you find you perceive the recoil, in relation to a Western muzzle-loader of roughly similar proportions? Perhaps excluding caplocks from that query. I said I couldn't imagine it being comfortable, having the arms taking all that energy, but I didn't realise I had a primary source of whom to enquire.

 

And, speaking of multi-barrelled guns, I spotted

on another forum; that little specimen struck me as looking and sounding very like the Chinese reproductions being discussed here. For some reason, they seem inclined to accept it as being a percussion-ignition gun, yet assess it as being 15th Century (if I recall); I wasn't aware that such an ignition mechanism was known, let alone used, as far back as that. And Ian - I didn't know Durs Egg were contracted to produce Nock guns; I'd always read that they were all produced at Nock's themselves, hence the name.

[John A Stuart]

Continuing on with odd gunpowder weapons I thought this might be of interest. These are a collection of Chinese weapons in a museum in Seoul. The weapon of interest is the Tieh Chi, that can be charged with powder and ball. BTW, firing from horse, could not something like a linstock have been used prior to snap-haunce mechanisms? John

[estcrh]

Argh! I bury myself in database and things for two days and the thread's gone off on a tangent! Oh well.

 

Piers, I'm amazed to see that many re-enactors in one place, let alone that many with working guns! I can just imagine what the police would say around these parts. But still, I'm even more pleased to see that you shoot yourself, so I can get it from the horse's mouth: how are these Japanese guns? How do you find you perceive the recoil, in relation to a Western muzzle-loader of roughly similar proportions? Perhaps excluding caplocks from that query. I said I couldn't imagine it being comfortable, having the arms taking all that energy, but I didn't realise I had a primary source of whom to enquire.

 

And, speaking of multi-barrelled guns, I spotted

on another forum; that little specimen struck me as looking and sounding very like the Chinese reproductions being discussed here. For some reason, they seem inclined to accept it as being a percussion-ignition gun, yet assess it as being 15th Century (if I recall); I wasn't aware that such an ignition mechanism was known, let alone used, as far back as that. And Ian - I didn't know Durs Egg were contracted to produce Nock guns; I'd always read that they were all produced at Nock's themselves, hence the name.

Mr Jones, there is a video of a new replica being fired online but thus one is much better. Even if fired using a more traditional method (I am assuming that the method used was not available until more recently) it would have been an awesome weapon to have come up against.

[estcrh]

Continuing on with odd gunpowder weapons I thought this might be of interest. These are a collection of Chinese weapons in a museum in Seoul. The weapon of interest is the Tieh Chi, that can be charged with powder and ball. BTW, firing from horse, could not something like a linstock have been used prior to snap-haunce mechanisms? John

John, great picture. I have seen some of the weapons shown in the lower left corner and did not know what they were.

[estcrh]

I think there are more pictures and info on Japanese, Chinese etc firearms here then any were else on the internet, someone could write a book on whats here. One more>>

[John A Stuart]

The Tieh Chi are the two cudgels (tetsubo) at the left upright, one knobbed, the other not, and the sai like weapons (all 'iron rulers'). The ones at the left are in the same vein, but, of bronze. These weapons were extant even into the late 19th century. Awkward to use, one shot deals. I include a picture of Chinese swivel guns, that much later were even breech loaded. These small guns were loaded fast and easy, were highly mobile and could be mounted on camels and elephants, as well tripod mounts were available for field use. John

[estcrh]

The Tieh Chi are the two cudgels (tetsubo) at the left upright, one knobbed, the other not, and the sai like weapons (all 'iron rulers'). The ones at the left are in the same vein, but, of bronze. These weapons were extant even into the late 19th century. Awkward to use, one shot deals. I include a picture of Chinese swivel guns, that much later were even breech loaded. These small guns were loaded fast and easy, were highly mobile and could be mounted on camels and elephants, as well tripod mounts were available for field use. John

John, were did you get these pictures, they are great.

[Bugyotsuji]

Piers, I'm amazed to see that many re-enactors in one place, let alone that many with working guns! I can just imagine what the police would say around these parts. But still, I'm even more pleased to see that you shoot yourself, so I can get it from the horse's mouth: how are these Japanese guns? How do you find you perceive the recoil, in relation to a Western muzzle-loader of roughly similar proportions? Perhaps excluding caplocks from that query. I said I couldn't imagine it being comfortable, having the arms taking all that energy, but I didn't realise I had a primary source of whom to enquire.

 

Well, M, it's hard to answer your question because the law absolutely forbids anyone placing a ball down the barrel. To go on a shooting range in Japan and fire ball requires another stupid level of training and license. Very few people bother to go that far. In the UK I fired a percussion cap 4 bore elephant gun at Bisley last year and the kick into the shoulder was very solid indeed. There was a man in the line/queue who assured me that he enjoyed firing his (small-calibre/caliber Tanegashima but was surprised when I said we don't put bullets in.

 

Most of the guns we fire here in Japan, from 2-3 Monme (8 gm black powder) way up to 50 Monme (50 grams) with wadding are quite docile. With the 100 Monme, our leader lashes his left hand to the stock, but in the beginning we had a few accidents as these bigger guns are incredibly heavy, (30kg +/-) and they can start to dance if you have cold or numb butterfingers. We are taught to twist right and bellow as we fire to absorb the recoil. Samurai would vie with each other to show how large and heavy a gun they could fire, standing or kneeling: some kind of pride/masochism? These guns could of course be fixed onto a small carriage, or rested on a straw bale. In times of siege I have heard the kick was so bad that they would sometimes place bedding or dig a muddy ditch behind the shooter and let the gun fly back.

[John A Stuart]

A man named Dekker took them in the Silk Road Museum, Seoul, Korea. John

[John A Stuart]

As can be seen by the marks these cast cannon are from the reign of Tongzhi, Qing dynasty, 1802-74. Poorly cast and finished, they show a general decline in the period. The other picture is of early breech loaders from the same period late on. John

 

Oh, I should explain how those breech loading cannon work. They are rather ingenuous. What looks like a regular old artillery shell has handles. They wedge into the breech, like a boy in the the belly of its mother precharged with projectile and powder. There is no breech block in the common sense except as the cartridge is wedged against the rear body of the gun. These can be fired and reloaded with a supply of them ready for rapid fire. John

[IanB]

What interesting photographs John - thank you for posting them. What an amazingly eclectic collection of hardware. It is incredible that these forged guns with reinforcing bands and chambers, which look like they have come from the pages of Froissart's Chronicles of the Hundred Years War, appear in photographs being used in the 19th century.

Ian Bottomley

[estcrh]

What interesting photographs John - thank you for posting them. What an amazingly eclectic collection of hardware. It is incredible that these forged guns with reinforcing bands and chambers, which look like they have come from the pages of Froissart's Chronicles of the Hundred Years War, appear in photographs being used in the 19th century.

Ian Bottomley

I agree completely, John...any more pictures hidden away?

[Bugyotsuji]

Agreed these are fantastic pics. Many thanks, John!

 

(Let's not forget to try and keep this thread somehow tied to The Edo Period. )

[estcrh]

Agreed these are fantastic pics. Many thanks, John!

 

(Let's not forget to try and keep this thread somehow tied to The Edo Period. )

By the Edo period the Japanese seemed to have gone crazy over guns. Is there any evidence that the Japanese used the types of firearms pictured here before the European style of guns appeared. Its hard to believe they just ignored guns until right before the Edo period.

[IanB]

Eric, You must read Perrin's book called 'Giving up the Gun'. Far from going mad over guns, the Tokugawa rounded up the gunmakers from the various han and set them up in Nagahama (those in Sakai being already under their control). They then only allowed orders that the Teppo Bugyo agreed to, effectively reducing them to almost nothing. They also granted small pensions to the defunct gunmakers to try and stop them running off to their original places of work. By the mid 1700's the trade was all but dead apart from odd orders by the Tokugawa themselves.

Ian Bottomley

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Far from going mad over guns,

 

Indeed, AFAIK Japanese is the only people ever to have willingly step back from this technology, for various reasons, until Meiji restoration.