This Week's Edo Period Corner

[Bugyotsuji]

Here is a pic of me firing a 20 Monme O-zutsu from Kameyama Castle in Ise, last autumn. (Uki-bune style) Notice the butt is nowhere near my shoulder. My regular long gun and Triton are on the ground beside me.

http://yasuyuki.blog.ocn.ne.jp/.shared/ ... c_4538.jpg

 

Oh, here is one showing my regular Hosokawa gun from Kumamoto Castle. 8 Monme.

http://yasuyuki.blog.ocn.ne.jp/.shared/ ... c_4519.jpg

[doug e lewis]

 

Hi Piers, tried to quote what you said in your last paragraph - above-- anyway, to get to it:

 

di you acually do this yourself?

 

thaNK you.

doug e

[Stephen]

di you acually do this yourself?

 

 

 

dog thats him in the photo

[Aloof Pegasus]

Piers

 

Really great pics.

 

(Workman tabi?)

 

Philip

[estcrh]

Unfortunately I am pretty sure the one posted above is a modern Chinese reproduction. I think I know who has been selling this piece too.

Here is another one, looks like it might be real. from> http://cgi.ebay.com/EXTRAORDINARILY-RAR ... _500wt_750

[Bugyotsuji]

Unfortunately Eric, that one is a modern Chinese reproduction. (Just one person's opinion. Can't say more on a public site.) Consider two things. One, these are being made today in Beijing, and dropped into latrines to 'age'. Two, if it was real, the Chinese government would be up in arms about this sale and would be demanding to know its provenance. Does the seller give you this information? They are in truth very rare; most either already known and accounted for in museums, or still buried and subject to Chinese cultural export laws.

 

PS Yes, Philip, those workmen Tabi with the Nike air bubble are my one luxury and the weak spot in the ensemble. They really need to be disguised inside proper straw Waraji...

[estcrh]

Unfortunately Eric, that one is a modern Chinese reproduction. (Just one person's opinion. Can't say more on a public site.)

 

Yes, those workmen Tabi with the Nike air bubble are my one luxury and the weak spot in the ensemble, Philip. They really need to be disguised inside proper straw Waraji...

Piers, with so few pictures of authenticated real ones available I have little to judge against, anything about it in particular which sets your alarm off?

[Bugyotsuji]

Eric, I have seen and handled two genuine ones. I have also seen and handled modern Chinese fakes. I have an article with b&w photos describing all the known extant three-barrelled guns. I know someone who is selling at least one of these fakes and have had correspondence with this person. He warned me, and gave me some pointers including the nipples on the touch-holes which shouldn't be there. These nipples look as though they have since been cleverly removed. The regular smoothness of the 'rusted' steel of the barrels and the thickness and consistency of the strengthening bands reminds me of the ones I have seen, and sets off alarm bells in my mind.

 

PS I didn't want to say this much as I am sure it will be used to create the next generation of super fakes...

[estcrh]

Eric, I have seen and handled two genuine ones. I have also seen and handled modern Chinese fakes. I have an article with b&w photos describing all the known extant three-barrelled guns. I know someone who is selling at least one of these fakes and have had correspondence with this person. He warned me, and gave me some pointers including the nipples on the touch-holes which shouldn't be there. These nipples look as though they have since been cleverly removed. The regular smoothness of the 'rusted' steel of the barrels and the thickness and consistency of the strengthening bands reminds me of the ones I have seen, and sets off alarm bells in my mind.

 

PS I didn't want to say this much as I am sure it will be used to create the next generation of super fakes...

Piers, yes I understand your point, Thanks

[Aloof Pegasus]

Piers

 

Apologies if I caused offense by calling attention to your tabi. I actually wear them all the time so was intrigued to spot yours in the pic.

 

Would waraji with wool or cotton tabi socks be more correct? Have you tried waraji?

 

I've been told that these days the Japanese will only wear waraji or tabi when taking part in a festival, particularly if helping carry something heavy. Unless carpenters of builders.

 

Philip

[Bugyotsuji]

Piers

 

Apologies if I caused offense by calling attention to your tabi. I actually wear them all the time so was intrigued to spot yours in the pic.

 

Would waraji with wool or cotton tabi socks be more correct? Have you tried waraji?

 

I've been told that these days the Japanese will only wear waraji or tabi when taking part in a festival, particularly if helping carry something heavy. Unless carpenters of builders.

 

Philip

 

You are absolutely right. Most of our members wear for displays either proper waraji or something that looks like waraji at first glance. In the old days, people's feet were used to the rough straw rubbing the skin, and their exposed toes hanging over the front lip, but nowadays no-one shows much enthusiasm for such in real life. I have a pair of proper straw waraji which, thanks to you, I have just spent this afternoon adapting for a quick slip-on over my Jika-tabi, and strengthening for longer wear. As you know, Waraji started to fall to pieces after a while, so people would carry a spare pair over their shoulder. Seems quite impractical. I wonder if they were designed like the coastal ships: made to fall to pieces if you wandered too far.

[Aloof Pegasus]

Piers

 

Thanks for that explanation and sorry about your afternoon's toil. If it's any consolation after reading your post I' ve decided to pick up a pair of waragi and give them a try. As I already wander the streets in tabi and tengu geta reckon my rep can't get much worse.

 

Philip

[Bugyotsuji]

Piers

 

Thanks for that explanation and sorry about your afternoon's toil. If it's any consolation after reading your post I' ve decided to pick up a pair of waragi and give them a try. As I already wander the streets in tabi and tengu geta reckon my rep can't get much worse.

 

Philip

 

Got a photo of this?

[estcrh]

Eric, I have seen and handled two genuine ones. I have also seen and handled modern Chinese fakes. I have an article with b&w photos describing all the known extant three-barrelled guns. I know someone who is selling at least one of these fakes and have had correspondence with this person. He warned me, and gave me some pointers including the nipples on the touch-holes which shouldn't be there. These nipples look as though they have since been cleverly removed. The regular smoothness of the 'rusted' steel of the barrels and the thickness and consistency of the strengthening bands reminds me of the ones I have seen, and sets off alarm bells in my mind.

 

PS I didn't want to say this much as I am sure it will be used to create the next generation of super fakes...

Piers, I am going to try one more time, dont tell me Major Tomm has gone bad!

 

from>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 1164wt_960

[Bugyotsuji]

Hi Eric. An early pepperbox/pepperpot? Out of my field... That that one looks good to me, but I am usually prepared to be wrong! Can anyone else comment?

[Jean]

Interesting but I'd like to see a rear view anda lateral/side one to understand how it was fired if it was a pepperbox

[estcrh]

Interesting but I'd like to see a rear view anda lateral/side one to understand how it was fired if it was a pepperbox

Jean, here you go. I never heard of a...pepperbox...is that a term used for different types of guns? GENUINE PRE-1750

 

OLD ANTIQUE CHINESE HAND-HELD MULTI BORE CANNON.

 

TEN BARREL... EACH APPROX. 0.5 INCH 1.25 CMS

 

EACH BORE(.5 INCH) HAVING A SEPERATE TOUCH HOLE.

 

SKILLFULLY CONSTRUCTED.

 

PLENTY OF ANCIENT RUST.

 

ORIGANALLY ONCE MOUNTED ON A HUGE WOODEN POLE/STOCK

 

RARE MUSEUM PIECE

 

UNCONDITIONALLY GUARANTEED 100% GENUINE

 

APPROX. (14 X 6 CMS)

 

EXTREMELY HEAVY...SOLID

[Brian]

Looks genuine to me.

Pepperbox.

Used to have a nice one, but sold it. Now I stick with pre-1900 Colts and Mauser C96's. But I digress.....

 

Brian

[Jean]

Eric,

 

Thanks a lot. I am wondering how they fire the center chambers?

 

Pepperbox was a kind of gun with barrels of same length :

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper-box

[IanB]

Eric, I don't want to be a party-pooper, but the 'ancient' Chinese gun, judging by the tool marks on the concave portion, has clearly been turned on a lathe. Whilst they were a great number of very clever people in China, I don't think there were that many lathes capable of turning 3 1/2" iron bars. Similarly, the touch holes are awfully well drilled and would have been more convincing had there been a depression around each one to retain a bit of powder.

Pepper boxes were pistols, usually percussion, with a cluster of barrels that rotated in turn to the firing position - like a revolver with an extended cylinder and no separate barrel. They were a good, safe answer to the problem of a multishot handgun, their only drawback being that they were muzzle-heavy. Although they look as if the barrels were formed from a block, most pepper boxes have then brazed up from separate tubes with ribs soldered between them. If the workers of the 19th century found making a solid block barrel array a problem, I suspect the ancient Chinese might have been defeated the task

Ian Bottomley

[estcrh]

Looks genuine to me.

Pepperbox.

Used to have a nice one, but sold it. Now I stick with pre-1900 Colts and Mauser C96's. But I digress.....

 

Brian

Thanks Brian and Jean to, its hard to tell the real from the fake, there are not many examples online either.

[estcrh]

Eric, I don't want to be a party-pooper, but the 'ancient' Chinese gun, judging by the tool marks on the concave portion, has clearly been turned on a lathe. Whilst they were a great number of very clever people in China, I don't think there were that many lathes capable of turning 3 1/2" iron bars. Similarly, the touch holes are awfully well drilled and would have been more convincing had there been a depression around each one to retain a bit of powder.

Pepper boxes were pistols, usually percussion, with a cluster of barrels that rotated in turn to the firing position - like a revolver with an extended cylinder and no separate barrel. They were a good, safe answer to the problem of a multishot handgun, their only drawback being that they were muzzle-heavy. Although they look as if the barrels were formed from a block, most pepper boxes have then brazed up from separate tubes with ribs soldered between them. If the workers of the 19th century found making a solid block barrel array a problem, I suspect the ancient Chinese might have been defeated the task

Ian Bottomley

Ian, it looks like there is a shallow depression around each touch hole that is not showing on some pictures, could the lathe look have come from a casting form? I am assuming type would have been cast.

[IanB]

Eric, Cast iron is fine in compression, but not good in tension, which a barrel needs to be of course. I know that cast iron was eventually used for cannon, but it wasn't until the Napoleonic era that the technology allowed this to be done. That is why earlier guns are gun-metal - a form of bronze. In fact, there is a good argument that the size of the British navy of that period was only possible because they could be fitted with iron guns. The supply of bronze was limited which in turn set a limit on how many ships of the line you could equip. But that's another matter. Cast iron isn't really on for small guns, hence the amount of labour that was involved in forging and welding barrels from wrought iron.

Ian

[estcrh]

Eric, Cast iron is fine in compression, but not good in tension, which a barrel needs to be of course. I know that cast iron was eventually used for cannon, but it wasn't until the Napoleonic era that the technology allowed this to be done. That is why earlier guns are gun-metal - a form of bronze. In fact, there is a good argument that the size of the British navy of that period was only possible because they could be fitted with iron guns. The supply of bronze was limited which in turn set a limit on how many ships of the line you could equip. But that's another matter. Cast iron isn't really on for small guns, hence the amount of labour that was involved in forging and welding barrels from wrought iron.

Ian

Thanks Ian, its a very complicated subject! I have been looking for information on this kind of early cannon or gun but its hard to find.

[Bugyotsuji]

Very good input from Ian there. Powder would not sit in the touch-holes, so you would need a series of fuses. You could probably shoot small fireworks from it. I wonder if something like this could have been made (even experimentally) at the time of the Boxer Rebellion?

[estcrh]

Very good input from Ian there. Powder would not sit in the touch-holes, so you would need a series of fuses. You could probably shoot small fireworks from it. I wonder if something like this could have been made (even experimentally) at the time of the Boxer Rebellion?

It would be nice if there was more reference material on thse types of firearms, maybe this thread will help someone in the futur., I would like to see authenticated examples so I could have something to compare against.

[John A Stuart]

I don't think this is a firearm at all and believe at the very best it may be a signaling device and at worst a red herring. John

[Jean]

I agree with John, thre should be at least one hole corresponding to each "chamber"/barrel it is not the case. Impossible (from pictures) to see how the center chambers are connected to the firing system

 

Among these hand guns you will find some pepperboxes of both types (see Ian descriptions)

[estcrh]

Very good input from Ian there. Powder would not sit in the touch-holes, so you would need a series of fuses. You could probably shoot small fireworks from it. I wonder if something like this could have been made (even experimentally) at the time of the Boxer Rebellion?

I have read that devices like this were fired using a hot wire or poker, anyone know if this is accurate?

[estcrh]

Very good input from Ian there. Powder would not sit in the touch-holes, so you would need a series of fuses. You could probably shoot small fireworks from it. I wonder if something like this could have been made (even experimentally) at the time of the Boxer Rebellion?

I have read that devices like this were fired using a hot wire or poker, anyone know if this is accurate?

"Handgonne being fired from a stand - Belli Fortis", manuscript, by Konrad Kyeser, is a remarkable manual of strategy and military engineering, 1400. It shows the beginnings of guns.

 

The handgun (an eight or 16 inch iron or bronze tube held in a straight wooden stock ignited by poking a hot wire into the touch hole) appeared in the 14th century. Germany developed the first mechanical means of igniting the gunpowder in the gun. A matchcord was held in a lock which pivots toward the touch hole by applying pressure on a trigger. The matchlock was born and was first shown in a 1411 manuscript. from>> http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch61 ... annon.html .................Is it possible that the Asian style hand cannons were fired the same way? No fuse or depression at the touch hole would be needed to fire them in this case.