This Week's Edo Period Corner

[doug e lewis]

HI Peirs, those are fantastic photos --- man, i wish i was there! been outside working so missed he start of the post.

 

MORE

 

thank you,

 

doug e

[Bugyotsuji]

Piers..great pictures...can you tell me how this festival is different than the Soma gathering?

 

Doug & Eric, thanks. Eric, in the summer of 2008 there was a gathering in Tanegashima of fullarmor/armour matchlock companies from all over Japan. Something that had not really happened there before. This was a great success, so last fall/autumn another was organized in Ashikita in Kyushu. 160 (?) gunners formed a line and fired towards the Ariaki Sea. Suddenly it seemed like they were on a roll with this sort of thing, and it was announced that Hikone was going to do one in March 2010, with 250 members from 23 castle matchlock corps. Unfortunately the funding is a problem and we may not have one again for some time, according to the rumors/rumours.

 

I'll add some more pics in a while, then.

[estcrh]

Piers..great pictures...can you tell me how this festival is different than the Soma gathering?

 

Doug & Eric, thanks. Eric, in the summer of 2008 there was a gathering in Tanegashima of fullarmor/armour matchlock companies from all over Japan. Something that had not really happened there before. This was a great success, so last fall/autumn another was organized in Ashikita in Kyushu. 160 (?) gunners formed a line and fired towards the Ariaki Sea. Suddenly it seemed like they were on a roll with this sort of thing, and it was announced that Hikone was going to do one in March 2010, with 250 members from 23 castle matchlock corps. Unfortunately the funding is a problem and we may not have one again for some time, according to the rumors/rumours.

 

I'll add some more pics in a while, then.

Piers, very interesting, do you know if the guns used are antique or reproductions or a combination of both.

[Bugyotsuji]

Working reproductions are not allowed by law. All the guns are on the face of it genuine antiques with Toroku paperwork. Any exceptions would risk flouting the law.

[IanB]

Piers, Your comment about our three-barrelled matchlock doesn't surprise me. Inside the lock cavity it is as clean as a whistle and I have always assumed it was very late Edo period. Over the years I have seen a couple more and all had vines on the barrels. I guess what you are saying is that it isn't even that old and that there was (or is) a little workshop somewhere that turns them out. I have however handled a real three-barrelled gun, not matchlock but snaphaunce. This was originally in the Army Museum in Mexico City but is now in California. That was originally Tokugawa but had the aoi kamon on the barrels defaced and had been re-decorated with Buddhist divinities.

Love the images and wish I could have been there. Sorin became a Buddhist first before converting to Christianity. He sent the Portuguese king a tanto with a gold snake around the saya and gave the Governor of Goa an armour and a couple of naginata. I'm pretty sure it was he who sent King Philip II of Spain the mogami haramaki now in the Royal Armouries when he contributed to the Tensho Mission to Europe. Quite a guy.

Ian Bottomley

[Bugyotsuji]

Your post is full of fascinating insight, for which many thanks, Ian. Perhaps that is what he meant about the vine leaves... although he seemed to be careful not to say too much and it did not sound particularly negative. (?) I think he merely wanted me to know that his was/is the real McKoy. Here are a few more pics of the day.

 

The long gun below is an Oo-deppo, (to be distinguished from an Oo-zutsu). They were used in the early years up to Sekigahara and Osaka-no-jin. Sometimes called Keicho-deppo. Sawada Sensei pulled the trigger, and he had a new boy to hold up the front end of the gun for him. It took about three or four people to load it, and he assured us that he had just borrowed it from the museum, and it had not been fired in 400 years. There were two of them fired yesterday, both quite rusted barrels, one genuinely old throughout, and one with a new stock and lock. I got one guy to make a fist to demonstrate the size of the muzzle.

[Bugyotsuji]

Some general heraldry shots.

[Bugyotsuji]

This gun was used to fire a bo-hi-ya or flaming rocket. The iron tip would burst through the castle tiled roof and the naptha-soaked ropework, set on fire by the gun's explosion, would ensure that the castle burned from within.

[Bugyotsuji]

Simple Kanji question. What does this say?

[Bugyotsuji]

Apologies Brian. I'll stop here...

[Jean]

Thanks a lot Piers for sharing I love that guns

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks a lot Piers for sharing I love that guns

 

What, all of them?

[Jean]

Above all this one :

 

This gun was used to fire a bo-hi-ya or flaming rocket

[John A Stuart]

Piers, 彦根城 means Hikonejo. Hikone castle. 'Persistent boy castle. :)' This castle was made up of parts from Otsu and Nagahama castles. John

[Bugyotsuji]

Piers, 彦根城 means Hikonejo. Hikone castle. 'Persistent boy castle. :)' This castle was made up of parts from Otsu and Nagahama castles. John

 

Ah, yes, I heard something along those lines. And one of the towers is constructed after the fashion of a famous castle which withstood a long siege. This was considered a good omen.

[IanB]

Piers, Once again many thanks for the trouble you have taken to reproduce the images. I just love the big old gun. You can only feel a great pity for the poor devil who had to carry that one to and from the battlefield. Judging from the type of corrosion on the muzzle I would agree it has been kicking around for a very long time. I love the guy with the bohiya. I understand they were tricky - either going off prematurely or flying in an irregular way. It is also good to see the owner wearing the muneate. I have a couple and think they are very stylish.

Ian B

[Bugyotsuji]

I didn't know that about how tricky the bohiya were in flight, but it makes sense come to think of it. As to that long gun, apart from the shooter and the loading team, there were two ashigaru (well, not really ashigaru) designated to carry it yesterday, and I got them to pose for me.

[watsonmil]

Dear Piers,

Being that I have a deep interest in these firearms, .... I too must say I enjoyed the photos very much. Keep your powder dry.

.......... Ron Watson

[John A Stuart]

Love it, just love it. Swords, guns, banners, pageantry and girls. What more could you want besides good food and good drink. After everything is stowed, of course!!!. John

[Bugyotsuji]

Glad to see that that this kind of stuff shivers other people's timbers too.

 

Ian, I had a follow-up double-check chat with our top man about your grapevine three-barrelled matchlock, and he said that he has no reason to doubt its authenticity. He said this type was probably being made towards the end of the Edo Period.

[MrJones]

Oh my... I can't help but agree, I love the Oo-deppo. Reminds me not a little of the much later Western "elephant guns" in its dimensions, though by the look of that pic the bore is considerably smaller - about 0.6-0.7in? It's a magnificent thing, nonetheless; I can only assume, too, that the barrel wall thickens as it approaches the breech! And never mind the bloke carrying it - pity the poor lad whose ears are only slightly removed from the muzzle whenever she fires...

 

Incidentally, I have a question. The characteristic Japanese butt design seems to be very different to that of Western firearms, even of this period (though not nearly so odd as the Afghan jezail; we've just acquired one in the last week, another project to look into!), exhibiting a pronounced drop at the base of the stock and producing that characteristic, steeply curved shape. I've looked at these many times and can't help but think it's not at all comfortable-looking; when I last visited the RA, I stood and tried to envisage how I would hold such a weapon, and reckoned the butt would probably rest near the top of the shoulder (if one was to have any sort of aim, that is), which would probably be quite nasty when firing for prolonged periods. Does anyone have any information on why the Japanese design evolved thus?

 

And, although it's off topic, does anyone know of a forum that specialises in Eastern firearms? :lol:

[Bugyotsuji]

Mr Jones, sir,

 

Guns were orginally pole weapons. The pole was held straight but it was difficult to aim. Versions were designed to go over the shoulder, or under the shoulder like the Jezail. Others to go against the shoulder, and still others to be gripped and held away from anything.

 

There is a theory that the design of Japanese armor/armour does not allow for the use of a Western type shoulder rest/butt. In Japan they kept the old ship's prow type of butt, and they called it a Ho-ate among other things, or cheek piece. I believe you could reverse the gun after firing your one shot, and split a man's skull open with the central ridge of the butt. On firing, the butt/stock slides back past the right cheek-bone and the recoil is taken by the grip and elasticity of the complete right arm. The whole body stance of the Samurai is designed for aiming and recoil, and there is even a school of thought that says placement of the butt against the shoulder is actually a 'less' accurate way of aiming and firing. It is true that into the Edo Period larger and larger guns were fired in this way, and Western observers called them hand cannons.

[MrJones]

Piers,

 

While I'm aware of the original configuration of guns - the very early, pot-like "hand gonne" of the 14th century - I'm still puzzled by the weird and wonderful shape of the Jezail, for reasons upon which I shall elaborate later. However, with regard to Japanese guns, your suggestion is interesting. Most muzzle-loading pistols seem to have been designed at least partially to function as clubs, as I'm sure you're well aware; however, if I'm not mistaken, Western long guns made little special adaptation toward this function, it presumably being considered that an eleven-pound, four-foot club was quite adequate as a melee weapon.

 

As to recoil absorption, I find it a little difficult to believe that the method you suggest, involving as it does significant stress to the arm of the firer and a lot of movement by the gun, would produce particularly good results; surely, with the surprisingly high muzzle velocities of early modern firearms, this movement would be quite unpleasant for the firer? One of the things I've been told (doing what little shooting I have done) is that one should never let the weapon work up any velocity in the recoiling direction; bracing the butt firmly against the shoulder, and maintaining a tight grip on the fore stock and hand grip, are both key components of this prevention process, rather than letting the weight of the gun be accelerated to a velocity where its impact hurts. That said, I can imagine that letting the gun recoil a fairly long way, and simply letting one's arms "take the strain", in conjunction with the different grip used by Japanese musketeers (ashigaru of some sort?), would perhaps be quite effective. Likewise, I'd never considered the fact that Japanese musketeers evidently wore armour, something their European counterparts rarely enjoyed; perhaps the armour provides an extra sort of cushioning effect for the wearer; and I'm most interested by your point that larger and larger guns were used in this way. Is the o-deppo a sample of that breed?

 

To return (briefly) to our Jezail: I've been experimenting with different ways of gripping the piece with a view to understanding that curved stock. Holding it beneath the shoulder, in the crook of the arm, seems to me a most unsatisfactory arrangement; firstly, it provides little to no benefit in recoil absorption, suggesting that the entire butt could have been dispensed with (producing something that looks like a giant, very old combat shotgun, perhaps!); secondly, it negates the use of the backsight on a rifled weapon (which this particular gun is, though I understand many Jezail were not), which rather makes one wonder why they put it on in the first place (it seems to have been made integral to the barrel, i.e. forged with it); and thirdly, it places one's face uncomfortably close to the lock, and especially the priming pan.

 

Anyway, sorry to drift off topic. I can honestly say that, once again, I've been shown something I'd never even conceived of. Heck, I didn't even realise that Japanese musketeers wore armour! Thank you, good sir, for enlightening a young, over-eager student. I just hope I'm not coming over as a bit of an arrogant beggar.

[IanB]

Mr. Jones / Piers, By a strange coincidence I have spent the day with a Prof of Chinese history discussing guns and other items. What you must realise is that although the gun was brought to Japan by the Portuguese, it wasn't a European gun they were carrying. In 1510 the Portuguese captured Goa and the arsenal there. After rounding up the workers, they set them to work making guns under German supervisors.Although it was a gun-making establishment, I suspect almost all of their production prior to the take-over was cannon. It was the Germans who introduce the notion of the snapping matchlock and I suspect the basic stock shape. If you examine guns from the Carnatic region, in particular from Kurg, the stock shape is weird, but can be visualised as being derived from the European petronel. These and the snapping mechanism being popular in Germany at this period. This basic gun moved eastwards with the Portuguese reaching Burma, China and ultimately Japan. Leaving aside local differences in ornamentation, they are the same guns. Chinese texts illustrate exactly this gun, complete with ornamental finial to the end of the lockplate, as do the Burmese guns and as do the two guns in Nagoya (which can be identified as Portuguese imports by the Indian style decoration and the Catholic ornament on the barrels). By this time, some 40 odd years, the butt shape had evolved into the familiar pistol-grip style we associate with Japanese guns (the same shape occurring on the guns illustrated by the Chinese - known by them as 'bird-beaked guns'). These snapping matchlocks did not take off in most of India - their guns being based on those carried by the Turks and Mamaluks who sent a force to India to help the Muslim maharajahs chuck the Portuguese out.

 

The two guns in Nagoya illustrate the two basic lock mechanisms adopted by the Japanese - that with an external spring and a pivoted sear poking through the lockplate, and those with a spiral spring and a sliding sear acting on a tumbler. The only contribution the Japanese seem to have made to these models was the simplification of the lockplate shape and the elimination of the screws - using tapered pins and mortices and tenons instead. The Nagoya gun with external spring is an early model with the mainspring being straight and attached to a secondary plate in front of the lock. The Chinese illustration shows this as a U shape and attached to the main plate like later Japanese guns so I don't think the Japanese actually came up with this idea.

 

It is a complicated story in which there are gaps. For example, a gun was brought to Osaka in 1510 from China and a few were made but it failed to catch on. Why? I don't know because there appears to be no illustration or description of it in either China or Japan. The Goan guns however spread like wildfire in Japan. Why was it so superior? again I don't really know but is suspect it was the fact that it had a decent barrel and could be sighted. Until more information comes to light it must reamin a bit of a mystery.

Ian Bottomley

[John A Stuart]

This picture from Conlan's 'Weapons and Techniques of the Samurai Warrior' illustrates a training exercise used to train Teppo-ashigaru how to volley fire against massed lines. There is no sighting and the teppo is clasped against the trunk under the arm. Effective when accuracy is indeterminate with the smoothbore. From the 'budo geijutsu hiden zue'. John

[estcrh]

This picture from Conlan's 'Weapons and Techniques of the Samurai Warrior' illustrates a training exercise used to train Teppo-ashigaru how to volley fire against massed lines. There is no sighting and the teppo is clasped against the trunk under the arm. Effective when accuracy is indeterminate with the smoothbore. From the 'budo geijutsu hiden zue'. John

John, any idea what the rope tied around both ends of the guns is for? Something for recoil? They seem to be standing on it.

[John A Stuart]

Conlan says it is an ingenious method to hold the guns level to improve accuracy. I believe it is for practice to get the troops accustomed to the proper technique and not used in actual battle. I wish I could read the caption. John

[IanB]

John, I think you will find that the image shows troops using guns at night, the ropes being to ensure the guns are kept horizontal. It is taken from a book illustrated by Utagawa Kuniyoshi. If memory serves, the guy on the left is holding a lantern. On other pages are images of gunners shooting in pouring rain using the shields around the locks and match.

Ian Bottomley

[John A Stuart]

Thanks, Ian. The picture in the book is as shown so I was unaware of the lantern, perhaps Conlan as well. Not a very good tactic, backlighting your troops for enemy fire. John

[Bugyotsuji]

The picture above illustrates one of the ways of firing a gun firmly from the hip, and the rope or sash is used to hold the gun steady at a low height, a triangle being created by pulling up against the left foot. I had to do this in the Dojo as part of one of the Dan that I got. I don't remember anything about night firing, but that too is quite possible.

 

Another increased-accuracy position we had to be able to do was, in the kneeling position, using our upright sheathed Katana as a monopod, and holding the Tanegashima firmly onto the edge of the tsuba, all with the fingers of the left hand, and then doing the firing procedure. Try doing that on a slippery wooden Dojo floor without sliding the Saya, dropping the gun or letting it slip off the Tsuba, all in front of the judges!