uwe Posted February 22, 2010 Report Posted February 22, 2010 Hi folks, I`m very happy that you obviously admire this great "piece of Osaka art". Unfortunately, I had to disappoint you........ it`s not for sale................ :lol: Uwe PS: No clue about the provenance Donald And Louis,.........I`m working on the story
estcrh Posted March 5, 2010 Report Posted March 5, 2010 Here is an interesting item, anyone know what it is?
IanB Posted March 5, 2010 Report Posted March 5, 2010 Eric, Yup I know because one was bought for the Royal Armouries and it is now on show in the Oriental Gallery. It had been in the collection of a former curator and had appeared in several publications on firearms. When he died it seemed a nice gesture to acquire it for the collection to remember him by. When it arrived, I and others were disappointed by how small it was - all the illustrations that had appeared suggested it was much bigger. Anyway, I will not blow the secret of exactly what it is because it took me quite a while to pin down its origins. All I will say is that it had previously been assigned to the wrong country and its real purpose had been misunderstood. Ian Bottomley
Jean Posted March 5, 2010 Report Posted March 5, 2010 Three barelled hand gun or a device for fireworks?
estcrh Posted March 5, 2010 Report Posted March 5, 2010 Eric, Yup I know because one was bought for the Royal Armouries and it is now on show in the Oriental Gallery. It had been in the collection of a former curator and had appeared in several publications on firearms. When he died it seemed a nice gesture to acquire it for the collection to remember him by. When it arrived, I and others were disappointed by how small it was - all the illustrations that had appeared suggested it was much bigger. Anyway, I will not blow the secret of exactly what it is because it took me quite a while to pin down its origins. All I will say is that it had previously been assigned to the wrong country and its real purpose had been misunderstood.Ian Bottomley Ian, what was its approximate size anyway? This one does not appear the have any measurements. What country would this most likely have come from? Its in Japan but I was thinking it might have originated some were else.
estcrh Posted March 5, 2010 Report Posted March 5, 2010 Three barelled hand gun or a device for fireworks? Jean, your right, this thing give the word "hand gun" a whole new meaning! http://www.japanauctioncenter.com/view2 ... /m68945764
John A Stuart Posted March 5, 2010 Report Posted March 5, 2010 Isn't that a Chinese or Korean hand cannon(gonne) meant to be mounted on a pole? Fired by manually applying a match to the touch-hole. I can see the waka gathering these from captured trading vessels of Chinese or Korean merchants. The text mentions Sakai, but, did the Japanese make this type? John
Nobody Posted March 5, 2010 Report Posted March 5, 2010 [OT] Ref. Monthly magazine “集 (Shu)” http://www.shunet.co.jp/publish/index.php http://www.shunet.co.jp/publish/backnum/index.php
IanB Posted March 5, 2010 Report Posted March 5, 2010 Eric, The one we acquired for the Museum is about 6" overall length - this one looks slightly larger. As has been said, the country of origin is Korea. There are images of Korean horsemen riding along with the larger versions of these attached to a shaft spewing out fire and bullets. However, that in the Royal Armouries was mounted on a short wood handle and was used for signalling. I found another image of a Korean rider holding one vertically. The iron band around the muzzle of the RA example extends somewhat forming a shallow recess which may have held a wood or paper cover to keep the weather out. It would have to be primed and held horizontally to fire it so it can't have been very convenient. The one illustrated may well have been acquired by the wako or even during the Korean campaigns and is almost big enough to be a gun rather than a signalling device. Quite a rare thing. A few years ago, the author Stephen Turnbull scoured Korea for arms and armour and drew a blank, other than cannon, even in the bigger museums. The place has been occupied and fought over so many times there is nothing left. We have a Korean helmet in the Royal Armouries and a Japanese helmet made from a Korean / Chinese helmet bowl. Other than a complete armour in Chicago, I know of little else. Ian Bottomley
Bugyotsuji Posted March 5, 2010 Author Report Posted March 5, 2010 Unfortunately I am pretty sure the one posted above is a modern Chinese reproduction. I think I know who has been selling this piece too.
watsonmil Posted March 5, 2010 Report Posted March 5, 2010 As someone who spent 40 + years in the Antique Weapons business, ... I can virtually assure you that the item pictured is a Chinese Copy. Over the years I have been offered such sprious example on more than one occassion. Believe it or not they are often artificially aged by placing in a manure pile for a number of weeks/months. The resulting rust formation is sadly quite convincing. Wherever there is a buck to be made, .... someone will ! Original examples are " VERY CRUDE ", and not nearly so symetrical. .......... Ron Watson
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted March 5, 2010 Report Posted March 5, 2010 We have a Korean helmet in the Royal Armouries and a Japanese helmet made from a Korean / Chinese helmet bowl. Other than a complete armour in Chicago, I know of little else. Ian, maybe you're interested in this Silla Horse armor (forgive if you're already aware of it) : http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/ ... id=2907709 and these pics of miscellaneous ancient korean weaponry (first one with strong T'ang influences) :
watsonmil Posted March 6, 2010 Report Posted March 6, 2010 Carlo, ... has pictured some Japanese examples of multi-barreled ( novelty type ) firearms. These are EDO period and as such much later than the type pictured in your post. Indeed the Japanese experimented with all sorts of types of firearm oddities in an attempt to increase " rate of fire ". Included among these were " matchlock revolvers " no less ! Note also the high quality of the Japanese work. Sorry to say the three barreled variety ORIGINALLY posted bears little in time frame nor workmanship to those made in Japan. The copies ( Korean ) are NOT uncommon to find. The Japanese " experimental " firearms are as scarce as chicken teeth. ........... Ron Watson
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted March 6, 2010 Report Posted March 6, 2010 In Venice there is one that looks very Edo, which I've no picture of, that is incredibly huge even for a Siege-Teppo, still maintaining the proportions of such siege weapons. It has not signs that can allude to a mount bearing the weight and the recoil, so I wonder if there were also presentation-ones...
estcrh Posted March 6, 2010 Report Posted March 6, 2010 Carlo, ... has pictured some Japanese examples of multi-barreled ( novelty type ) firearms. These are EDO period and as such much later than the type pictured in your post. Indeed the Japanese experimented with all sorts of types of firearm oddities in an attempt to increase " rate of fire ". Included among these were " matchlock revolvers " no less ! Note also the high quality of the Japanese work. Sorry to say the three barreled variety ORIGINALLY posted bears little in time frame nor workmanship to those made in Japan. The copies ( Korean ) are NOT uncommon to find. The Japanese " experimental " firearms are as scarce as chicken teeth. ........... Ron Watson Here is another labled as..experimental..
IanB Posted March 6, 2010 Report Posted March 6, 2010 Carlo, Yes I was aware of the pieces you picture. It is my fault, but I was thinking more of armours from the 16th century during the Japanese invasions rather than the archaeological material. From what I understand, it was mainly of brigandine construction, of plates sandwiched between layers of cloth. The neckguard and ear-flaps on the RA helmet are of this type, of a tough brown cloth with domed brass rivet heads showing on the outside. What I have never seen before is the lamellar armour you illustrate. What I find interesting is the arm defence which is like an Indian / Persian etc bazuband. The standing collar is also very strange. Is this a real armour or a reconstruction? Piers, Love the turret gun. I've seen a picture of this before but not in such detail. Not the best idea if you get chain-fire between the chambers. Ian Bottomley
Brian Posted March 6, 2010 Report Posted March 6, 2010 2 Stunning and fairly unique examples from the 2008 DTI. I should have taken better pics.. Brian
estcrh Posted March 6, 2010 Report Posted March 6, 2010 2 Stunning and fairly unique examples from the 2008 DTI. I should have taken better pics.. Brian Incredible workmanship, and check out that price...pretty incredible also.
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted March 6, 2010 Report Posted March 6, 2010 What I have never seen before is the lamellar armour you illustrate. What I find interesting is the arm defence which is like an Indian / Persian etc bazuband. The standing collar is also very strange. Is this a real armour or a reconstruction? It's a reconstruction, based on archeological examples. Still much earlier than the period you are interested in. The connections between India-Persia-Central Asia and China-Korea-Japan is what I'm focusing now, so I too have found this detail interesting. BTW, may you kindly tell me if the RA have examples of Kök Türüks weaponry pre-dating the Xth (or at least not later then XI) century ? Carlo, Yes I was aware of the pieces you picture. It is my fault, Nope,the fault is mine. I had to suppose you were already aware of them. In fact seems easier to find archeological examples than functional ones of the period you mentioned.
IanB Posted March 6, 2010 Report Posted March 6, 2010 Carlo, No not really. The RA has traditionally covered the period between the conquest of Britain by William in 1066 and about the Napoleonic era. Prior to the earliest of these dates the British Museum covered the ground and the Army Museum dealt with the later stuff. Indeed, in about 1910 the entire Oriental holdings at the Tower of London were disposed of to the BM. Much has now been recovered and we have branched out slightly but not by much. Ian
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted March 6, 2010 Report Posted March 6, 2010 Carlo, No not really. The RA has traditionally covered the period between the conquest of Britain by William in 1066 and about the Napoleonic era. Prior to the earliest of these dates the British Museum covered the ground and the Army Museum dealt with the later stuff. Indeed, in about 1910 the entire Oriental holdings at the Tower of London were disposed of to the BM. Much has now been recovered and we have branched out slightly but not by much.Ian Thanks Ian. Guess I've to search into russian or maybe turkish sources...
Bugyotsuji Posted March 21, 2010 Author Report Posted March 21, 2010 One has to be terribly careful with unusual Japanese guns (eg three-barrelled guns) as the very high prices assures that there will be many fakes around. People will pay top dollar just on the off-chance that this one could be genuine, when in many cases the provenance is just not there. A close friend likes to assure me that there are only 'three' (pick your figure) known and verified examples in the world. To show how far he knows the market, I told him that there was one in the Royal Armouries in Leeds, and he said, 'I bet it had vines on the barrel' and he was right. Just shows how well he has researched them. Back to the purpose of this post, to update the thread, I was in Hikone this weekend for a gathering of the clans. A bitter wind and driving rain did not deter everyone from a magnificent display, not least of which was the various Sengoku banners and Uma-jirushi. I bet John's friend Evalerio would have been happy to see them. I was astonished to see one group with large silver crosses hanging on their breast plates and asked if I could take a photo. They explained that they were from Bungo, and their Lord Ootomo Sorin 1530-1587 was a prominent Christian Daimyo. I will post up a few low density pictures from the day, if Brian can overlook the bandwidth creep. Hikone Castle with its complete concentric moats and many remaining original features is worth a visit alone if anyone has not yet been. 1
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted March 21, 2010 Report Posted March 21, 2010 I bet John's friend Evalerio would have been happy to see them. Piers, just post them on Samurai Archives. Emmanuel is not the only one that would love to see them ...
Bugyotsuji Posted March 21, 2010 Author Report Posted March 21, 2010 I bet John's friend Evalerio would have been happy to see them. Piers, just post them on Samurai Archives. Emmanuel is not the only one that would love to see them ... Is there an invisible wall against outsiders? No-one bothers to answer or acknowledge my posts, so I have kind of given up commenting. I posted a correction to someone's misinformation the other day, but was completely ignored. You and John seem to be the only 'friendly' people over there. (Probably overstated the case a bit! :lol: ) 1
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted March 21, 2010 Report Posted March 21, 2010 Maybe they don't know you enough, yet. I'm there by... two board-changes ago. And our specialization in weaponry cut us off from most of the topics and studies, so it's not surpising. Emmanuel too is posting seldomly, for the same (specialization) reason.
Bugyotsuji Posted March 21, 2010 Author Report Posted March 21, 2010 Thanks Carlo. I have put out an exploratory message there. Let's see what happens.
estcrh Posted March 21, 2010 Report Posted March 21, 2010 Maybe they don't know you enough, yet. I'm there by... two board-changes ago.And our specialization in weaponry cut us off from most of the topics and studies, so it's not surpising. Emmanuel too is posting seldomly, for the same (specialization) reason. Piers..great pictures...can you tell me how this festival is different than the Soma gathering?
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