This Week's Edo Period Corner

[kusunokimasahige]

Bronze cannon indeed, apparently brass and bronze are interchangeable in US English i heard.

Now for something completely different. Not Edo, but an inside theme which could be placed

in the Edo period qua style.

 

A new Haori for my re-enactments and iaido etc, black silk, only 10 US$ and from Japan, so i am happy :D

 

 

 

 

 

KM

[Bugyotsuji]

Many thanks for the terminology clarifications above. Guilty here. I have been using the words bronze and brass too loosely.

 

In Japanese they generally refer to non-ferrous barrels as being made of "Houkin", (gunmetal, or tin bronze, suzu seidou).

 

Henk-Jan, I like your new apparel! Very smart.

[kusunokimasahige]

Thank you Piers !

 

Here are a few more trinkets i decided to post.

 

This is what i burn my incense in. Era unknown.

 

 

These two vases i think are Japanese.

 

 

Some lacquerware i bought at the auction of the Museum of Ethnic art in Leiden :

 

 

 

KM

[IanB]

Another slight correction . Blunderbusses were never loaded with scrap or nails. Such a charge would jam in the barrel and cause it to burst. What was used was shot, often quite large such as swan-shot. Although some were made with iron barrels, most were brass or other non-ferrous alloy to avoid the need for constantly unloading them and cleaning them out. With a brass barrel, the charge could be left in for a protracted period without worrying about corrosion. Tucked under the driver's seat on a coach, or by the door of a house, the yawning muzzle made it an intimidating weapon against an attacker. Interesting though that so many have what our American cousins would call a 'second strike capability' in the form of a fold-out bayonet. Gave you a second chance if the charge of shot didn't do its job.

Ian Bottomley

[watsonmil]

Dear Ian,

There you go, ... not only have we in North America, but also by Ian's little slip ... the UK ... been using the words brass and bronze interchangeably. It would appear that our learned colleague in the Netherlands is more on the ball ( although not bronze nor brass ) with the correction that gun barrels were never made of brass but rather bronze ! Quite correct Sir, and I am in total embarrassment to admit my own guilt in the misnomer. In defence of Piers, ... one of course would be pushed to total desperation to load nails into a blunderbuss, .... small bits of nails and other bits of metal, or stone to be sure, but not 5 inch spikes. I'm sure with Piers' expertise in the use of firearms he did not intend the reader to equate desperation with the loading nails in the sense that you fear :D . Perhaps this thread ( whatever the hell it is ... I've long since lost track ) .... ah yes it's coming back now Piers' non ferrous ball/balls may yet bear some scholarly fruit. Here's a bit of knowledge that will be an education to many of the readers since we now have blunderbusses intermingled with cannon, ... I might as well dispel the belief held by many that the flared muzzle of the blunderbuss was intended to disperse the shot be they pellets, nails, stones, or threepence coins over a wider area than the standard say 12 bore shotgun. Rather the flared ( funnel like muzzle ) was intended as just that a funnel to ease the loading of the gun while riding horseback at a gallop, or as a passenger riding within a bouncing horse drawn coach bouncing along at high speed in hopes of out running the English Highwaymen ( robbers ) of the Georgian/early Victorian period. The fact that the huge flared muzzle acted as a psychological deterrent is of little doubt, ... but actual experimentation has shown that the flared muzzle does not disperse the shot in the least. It was simply easier to load during a bumpy ride. The blunderbuss was devised as a direct result of the number of highwaymen working the King's roads during the 18th and early 19th centuries in the UK and Continental Europe.

 

... Ron

[kusunokimasahige]

This is a nice image of a Grapeshot cannister used in bronze as well as iron cannon :

The idea of using loose debris like rusty nails and even cutlery was debunked quite well by the mythbuster team, though bags filled with scrap metal are known to have been used in some instances.

It is the bag/cannister which supports the shot untill leaving the barrel.

 

The blunderbuss wide muzzle was indeed invented to make horseback or carriage reloading easier as was posted above :

Though some were actually more like hand cannon (middle one from India) at the Pitt Rivers Museum at Oxford :

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_i3VnQnG90uY/T ... re+406.jpg

Note the mentioning of "brass" in the description If that were true this thing would have been ripped apart by the explosion.

 

What the Japanese did or did not put in their barrels i do not know about, but seeing the Western European powers of that time getting quite inventive i am sure some crazy ideas were also used or discovered by Samurai.

 

In the Netherlands we make a difference between Brons, Koper and Messing / Latoenkoper : Bronze, Copper and brass.

 

We also say aluminium, and not aluminum and Et Cetera in stead of ecsetera...

And we use full Latin and Greek names, so Homeros, Horatius, Livius, in stead of Homer, Horace, Livy...

but thats another thing for another forum

 

KM

[Brian]

The tie in with Japanese arms here is tenuous at best. Let's please get back on topic and leave the Blunderbuss and grapeshot discussions to the various firearms forums

 

Brian

[Curgan]

A new Haori for my re-enactments and iaido etc, black silk, only 10 US$ and from Japan, so i am happy :D

 

You should be prosecuted for this. This is a steal!

 

Seriously now, a great buy and it seems to be in perfect condition.

[kusunokimasahige]

A small treasure trove...

 

While going through some of my late mum's belongings i rediscovered a small wooden box which ratlled a little and when i opened it this came out :

 

 

I remember playing with these, together with my sister when we were kids.

 

I did some research online and found they are Chinese mother of Pearl gaming chips/counters, made between 1720 and 1900, most were made for rich and well off European families during that time.

 

I found an article online written in 1999 in JCK magazine on these chips of which i have added some interesting excerpts:

 

"Card games with quaint names like Piquet, Quadrille, and Spinado were the rage in the 18th and 19th centuries, as popular as today’s bridge, poker, and blackjack. Although the games are long gone, their mother-of-pearl gaming chips live on as collectible antiques and highly fashionable jewelry.

 

The most beautiful antique chips are the ones carved and engraved by the Chinese between 1720 and 1840. These undervalued mother-of-pearl chips are readily available. Most important, they often can be dated. Provenance can frequently be determined from engravings on the chips, and, since the chips were transported from their place of manufacture, still-extant shipping records document details such as who commissioned them and what price was paid.

 

From China to the United Kingdom. British and early American aristocrats who commissioned porcelain tableware and matching gaming chips from China would have the items engraved with designs such as armorial crests and monograms.

 

Aristocrats often arranged to purchase exotic gaming chips through sea captains and agents of the Honourable East India Company (HEIC). As part of their salary, crew members were allocated a small area in the cargo hold in which to transport items to sell personally back in the motherland. The shipping companies themselves were primarily interested in major products such as tableware and tea rather than in small trinkets like mother-of-pearl gaming chips.

 

According to Derek Cowan of Lansdown, England, an internationally renowned collector, the earliest recorded gaming-chip purchase was cataloged by HEIC in 1716 and included three dozen fish counters (the fish being the Chinese symbol for luck) along with six dozen others, commissioned and purchased by Lady Griselle Baillie. Because transit time would customarily be two to three years, Lady Baillie would have received her gaming chips around 1718."

 

"Most antique game-counter shapes are round, rectangular, square, cushion, marquise, oval, single fish (carp), or two crossed fish (dolphins). The single carp and crossed dolphins were the two most frequently commissioned shapes. According to Inge Sarosi, a Los Angeles designer and manufacturer of gaming-chip jewelry, the circular and square chips lend themselves best to jewelry; however, these shapes are the hardest to find. Rectangular chips, while more rare than fish-shaped, look “too much like a business card” and therefore are not as valued by designers, she says. Border details add interest to the piece, so designers seek out edges that are serrated, carved, or carved and pierced.

 

Designers will use interestingly shaped chips in their entirety for jewelry and will cut up older, damaged game pieces, using the better-quality portions. Armorials are typically kept in one piece, mainly because of their value to collectors.

 

The engraving on gaming chips is often highly detailed. Early engraving designs include scenes from Chinese poetry or philosophical stories; many depict Chinese flora and fauna, as well as views from everyday life. However, once the British got interested in gaming chips, their influence became evident. There are four types of British engravings: the coat-of-arms, displaying helmet armor (“helm”) and crowns (“coronets”) representing the history and wealth of the family who commissioned the chips; the buyer’s monogram; numbers from 1 to 1,000, for games requiring point tallies; and card suits and game names."

 

Quite a nice find i must say !!

 

Here is another, more detailed image :

 

 

 

Whether these were in use in Japan during the Edo period i do not know, but maybe some of the other forum members

could enlighten me.

 

KM

[sanjuro]

I see we havent yet got back to Japanese arms/armour etc............... In fact we seem to wandering even further afield, and most wordily to boot!

[kusunokimasahige]

Some armour, which still has to be restored, re-egawa'd, re-urushi'd and relaced..

 

I know the O-sode do not match....

 

 

The Kote are ok though.

 

At least we are back to the armour now...

 

 

KM

[estcrh]

In honor of Piers (who has been missing in action) I am posting a picture of a naginata bukuro that I found. The second post way back in the beginning of this thread was Piers yari bukuro.

 

 

[sanjuro]

Eric.

 

I have only ever seen a naginata bokuro at a distance, and I would like to have one made to fit a naginata of mine. Can you let me have more photos from all sides and angles please? If you can, please PM me or email me.

[IanB]

Back in the 60's or 70's, the Royal College of Heralds in Lodon put on an exhibition of various heraldic treasures. Published in the catalogue was a naginata bukuro described as a medieval herald's cap. :lol: :lol:

Ian Bottomley

[estcrh]

Ian, I can relate to that, I had seen a few before I figured out what they were for exactly, they have an odd shape. Keith I will take measurements if you need them. It will probably be a few weeks as it is in storage. Here are the few picture I have. Size:67cm (26.4") I saw it listed for at least a year and a few weeks ago I realized that I should probably buy it as they are not seen very often, it arrived a day or two before the earthquake .

http://s831.photobucket.com/albums/zz23 ... ?start=all

[sanjuro]

Thanks Eric.

 

These pics will be more than adequate. Measurements would vary I assume with the naginata being bokuro'd as it were. . The pics of this one give me the correct proportions, the type of lining and the right location for the loop that holds the fusahimo. When I tried to describe one of these things to a seamstress that makes my katana bokuro, she said it sounded like a brocade condom for a horse. (She has an earthy sense of humour). I wonder what she will make of these photographs?

[estcrh]

she said it sounded like a brocade condom for a horse. (She has an earthy sense of humour). I wonder what she will make of these photographs?

And Ian thought a medieval herald's cap was funny! If and when you get one made post a picture, I need a few of those myself. I have a couple of naginata and this cover fit on all of them so it seems to be fairly generic.

[Bugyotsuji]

(I have been 'away' for 40 days, dipping in every so often, and got back last night. Watching The Tudors, highly recommended, on the plane and noticed Henry VIII holding a very knobbly-looking cannonball in Episode 3 or 4, but enough of that. )

 

Thanks everyone for pulling this thread back on track with some fascinating items added to your collections. Wonderful Naginata-bukuro too. Why the bulge, I wonder? To insert the hand? In the photo it looks as if other spears have taken shelter in there.

[Lorenzo]

Piers, Okaeri nasai

[kusunokimasahige]

Great to have you back Piers ! btw, Tudors is a great series.. am following the fourth series now on the BBC.

 

Were Naginata bokuro/bukuro/fukuro used for special occasions? or was it just to give the wooden sheath a nicere appearance.. ?

 

KM

[sanjuro]

If I might presume to answer.........

 

Most armour and also weapons in koshirae had bokuro to preserve them when not in use. Remember the weather in Japan is a pattern of extremes. Whilst lacquered saya dont mind the rain and the cold, they react badly to direct sunlight, drying out and cracking fairly quickly. The bokuro is just a measure to preserve the mounting, rather than to look 'nicer'.

[estcrh]

Keiths right, it seems that every almost every Japanese object had a box or cover of some type, many box's had their own covers such as armor and sword boxes. They are in many cases very rare items now. Its very rare to see an armor that has its individual bukuro for each piece. Armor boxes could have not only leather covers but also a lattice like crate for carrying the box and sword boxes could have leather covers as well as a type of netting used when carrying the box. Sword tsuka had leather or cloth covers, saya had leather covers, tsuba had box's with cloth bukuro, yari saya also had cloth or leather covers...all long gone by the time we get the item.

 

[sanjuro]

Where is Piers when you need him? He's the box and bag man of the NMB. Man of the boxes and bags may be a better terminology there..... a bagman is something else entirely. :D

[Bugyotsuji]

Bag lady? Bag man? What do you need me for? I am enjoying reading the posts here. The above photograph is unusual in that the presumably original Saya and then the Fukuro are both extant. I like it!

 

Every so often bits and pieces appear and I like to acquire them. I have odd gun bags and sword covers and handle covers

and lattice armor/armour boxes, but nothing complete like that. (If it is the original set?)

 

I suppose with the extremes of climate in Japan, precious objects were wrapped in more and different materials in the hope that they would withstand whatever Nature could throw at them. We can see an extension of this Japanese penchant in the way that goods at department stores are still gift-wrapped to the gills.

[estcrh]

The above photograph is unusual in that the presumably original Saya and then the Fukuro are both extant. I like it! Every so often bits and pieces appear and I like to acquire them. I have odd gun bags and sword covers and handle covers

and lattice armor/armour boxes, but nothing complete like that. (If it is the original set?)

Piers, the two pieces are an exact fit but not not original, I have to admit that I put them together. An example of an item that while at one time must have been very common but now is very rare. I have a few felt saya covers, leather tsuka covers etc, I will try to find them and take some pictures.

[Bugyotsuji]

Will look forward to the photos then, Eric.

 

In the meantime the phone rang with long-awaited news. (Not as long as some, though!) I reported here on 17 December

2010 the sending-off of the Chigo-zashi to the Togi-Shi. Well, it is now ready and I am to pick it up on Saturday at the Token meeting.

 

I have just asked for a shira-saya, as an afterthought, but was told firmly that I should have mentioned that before having it polished, as the saya maker would be paranoid about getting any scratches on a newly-polished blade. The Koshirae is anyway quite suitable as it is, they tell me. The blade is held firmly inside the saya by the Habaki and the tip.

I have semi-reluctantly agreed.

[kusunokimasahige]

Though i understand the idea of a saya maker making a saya before the actual finished polish of a sword i still think that a polish can alter a blades thickness as well as its shape to the point it will not fit the prefabricated saya anymore...

 

What is the general way this is done ? Is it always the case that the shirasaya or even koshirae are made before the polish is finished ?

 

KM

[sanjuro]

Short answer ... Yes for the reasons given to Piers.

 

You are really asking the wrong question. Had you asked how much material is removed from a blade during the polishing process, then this question would have been largely answered for you.

 

The finish polish does not remove enough material to alter the fit of a koshirae or shirasaya appreciably. However, the sayashi allows for the few microns that the finish polish may even in the worst case remove. In effect he makes the shirasaya a fractionally tight fit. It is only at the habaki that the saya is a snug fit after all. The finishing polish itself then corrects that fractional close proximity that the sayashi has created to the blade within. The sayashi, clever fellow that he is also allows in the fit for the seasonal swelling and shrinkage of the shirasaya. This of course is not as critical with a koshirae that is then lacquered.

It is a common misconception the amount of material that is removed from a blade during the entire polishing process, much less the finishing stages of the polish alone. Most would believe that a greater amount would be removed in all than actually is, when in fact the entire process on a blade that does not need correcting but merely repolishing, can be measured in increments of thousandths of an inch or much less, in microns.

[Bugyotsuji]

Ah, thanks for that Keith. Excellent information.

[kusunokimasahige]

Well Keith, i must add that asking the wrong question in this case revealed the right information !

 

Thank you very much for that !!

 

Apart from Zenon, are ther any good Sayashi in Europe ?

 

KM