watsonmil Posted June 22, 2010 Report Posted June 22, 2010 Dear Piers, A serious question, .... on the far right in the photo is a long rod with a mushroom shaped top. Am I correct in guessing this is a " ball starter " for a very large caliber Tanegashima ? All I can say regarding the Portuguese who sold the first Tanegashima for what was in reality a fortune, .... is that .... if legend is true, .... and a later Portuegese gentleman sold the secret to cutting the Bisen ( breachblock ) threads to the Japanese Swordsmith for his daughter in payment instead of for gold Ryo, ... she must have been quite some beauty :D ! What a few months at sea will do . ... Ron Watson
Bugyotsuji Posted June 22, 2010 Author Report Posted June 22, 2010 Haha, yes, there are such very different interpretations of that story. Just read a book suggesting that there were two independent ships wrecked in Japan at the same time that year. The Chinese junky one on its way 'to Japan' hit 'Tanixima' and the other one from Siam bound for China sought refuge in somewhere called 'Congoxima' in Saxuma. It took me a while to figure these places out!!! Something fishy about this story though! The object that you call a 'ball starter', Ron, is probably what you imagine, though I am not sure what the English word 'ball starter' strictly refers to. Essentially what you see there is a thick ramrod for loading the large handcannon. We had 35 guns on display over the weekend, each representative of a particular field or area, such as place of manufacture or school of gunnery, and a few really special pieces.
watsonmil Posted June 22, 2010 Report Posted June 22, 2010 Piers, A ball starter is pretty much as you describe, ... for ramming a large caliber ball ( or at least getting the ball well started ) Thinner ramrods simply snap under the much greater pressure in starting a large caliber ball down the barrel. ..... Ron Watson
IanB Posted June 22, 2010 Report Posted June 22, 2010 Piers, The whole tale of the Portuguese and Tanegashima is more than a little odd. Unraveling who the Portuguese actually were and just what happened is shrouded in myth and legend. The Japanese list two of the Portuguese as Kirishitamota and Murashukusha, the first being identified with reasonable certainty as Christopher da Molta. Needham lists Yasuita Kinbei Kiyosada as the swordsmith tasked with making the guns and another retainer, Shinokawa Shoshiro who was ordered to learn how to make gunpowder from another member of the crew. Interestingly the problem of making the bisen isn't mentioned. As for swapping the glamorous daughter ..... Much of the confusion seems to lay at the door of Nampo Bunshi; a Buddhist monk who wrote of the affair in a book called ‘Teppo ki’. It would seem that this wasn't actually written until 50 years after the event and not published until 1649. Interestingly, Nikko own a small screen that belonged to Ieyasu that was painted by Kano Takanobu that shows a Chinese ship and three Portuguese unloading boxes and bales. Sadly no guns appear and the whole is very stylised, but it would seem to depict the actual event. Ian Bottomley
Bugyotsuji Posted June 22, 2010 Author Report Posted June 22, 2010 Ian, in the 1835-1836 'Historical Sketches of the Portuguese Settlements in China' by the Swede Sir Andrew Ljungstedt, he says that Portuguese sources and Charlevoin in the Histoire de Japa/on maintain the crew of the Tanegashima Chinese ship as Fernao Mendes Pinto, Christivao Barralho and Diogo Zeimoto. The other Siam to China ship in 'Congoxima' contained Anthony da Mota, Francis Zeimoto, and Anthony Peixolo. What was funny to me what that although they are said to be two unrelated ships, they both arrived around the same time in Satsuma (Tanegashima was very close and under the jurisdiction of Satsuma) and the names of Diogo Zeimoto and Francis Zeimoto are so close as to be brothers, or father and son. Were they Christian Japanese, (traders with Goa even) who were on the two ships as translators, and were they scouting parties to Japan, and had they prepared 'unrelated' shipwreck stories in case anything went wrong?
IanB Posted June 22, 2010 Report Posted June 22, 2010 Piers, The notion that Pinto was one of the three Portuguese who landed in Tanegashima is now discredited (see Daenhard - The Perfect gun - I need to check this but I think it is correct. He dwells at length with who they were). Pinto did visit Japan in the very early years, but admitted that his writings were to entertain his family. He is thought to have been elsewhere at that date. Ian
Bugyotsuji Posted June 23, 2010 Author Report Posted June 23, 2010 I am very glad someone is atop the historical accuracy pile. Thanks, Ian.
estcrh Posted June 26, 2010 Report Posted June 26, 2010 I ran into these interesting looking items, they are being called...hand cannons.... but I was thinking that they looked like the gunpowder testers poster earlier......any thoughts?
watsonmil Posted June 26, 2010 Report Posted June 26, 2010 Dear Eric, They may be powder testers, .... or simply novelty items, ... designed to make a loud bang with smoke. What are their barrel lengths, OA lengths , and bore diameters ( caliber ) in inches or in mm ? ... Ron Watson
estcrh Posted June 26, 2010 Report Posted June 26, 2010 Dear Eric, They may be powder testers, .... or simply novelty items, ... designed to make a loud bang with smoke. What are their barrel lengths, OA lengths , and bore diameters ( caliber ) in inches or in mm ? ... Ron Watson Ron, here is the info provided.." A Wonderful Antique Edo Period (1603-1867) Japanese Hand Cannon, circa. 18th century ? 3 5/8" .45 cal. octagon barrel w/Silver inlay/overlay in decorative designs and touch hole located in the top flat at breech. Unknown maker's mark, (researching). Original 7" stock w/light scratches and dings from years of handling. In fantastic condition..." and "A Wonderful Antique Edo Period (1603-1867) Japanese Hand Cannon, circa. 18th century ? 2 3/8" .577 cal. octagon barrel w/Silver inlay/overlay in decorative designs and touch hole located in the top flat at breech. Original 5 5/8" stock w/brass re-enforcement band at breech, stress crack on the right side of fore-end, light scratches and dings from years of handling. In fantastic condition..." from>> http://www.tortugatrading.com/data/resu ... mor&Page=6
watsonmil Posted June 26, 2010 Report Posted June 26, 2010 Dear Eric, I just do not know. I have a great deal of trouble reconciling these type of items with being " powder testers ". Outside of telling one that the powder will ignite, ... they measure absolutely nothing. I have had many eprovettes ( powder testers ) over the years, ... albeit European and American, .... and ALL were capable of measuring STRENGTH of the powder ( in fact further down the same page is an eprovette item # 1902 ). Eprovettes come in many different shapes and configerations, ... but even the most basic are more complicated than these POSSIBLE Japanese examples. I Think they fall more in line with the very small ones being either Nesuke, or alternatively Priming Powder Dribblers. These larger examples, ... I would suspect are more to do with either SIGNALLING, .... or as a Novelty Item used in conjunction with Fireworks. Europeans did use small cannon to give signal of approaching danger by a loud NOISE. Their examples sat flat on their butt and consisted of a barrel only with a touch hole. Loaded with a charge, and heavy wad they were ignited by touch hole, and made a loud bang as a signal. These Japanese items IF they have any great age are something of a mystery. Interesting items, .... but I have some scepticism. Ignor the " sights ", .... for some reason if it were related to gunpowder, .... the Japanese afixed sights even if said sights were totally useless. My guess is that they may well be " signalling devices " ... Ron Watson
estcrh Posted June 26, 2010 Report Posted June 26, 2010 Dear Eric, I just do not know. I have a great deal of trouble reconciling these type of items with being " powder testers ". Outside of telling one that the powder will ignite, ... they measure absolutely nothing. I have had many eprovettes ( powder testers ) over the years, ... albeit European and American, .... and ALL were capable of measuring STRENGTH of the powder ( in fact further down the same page is an eprovette item # 1902 ). Eprovettes come in many different shapes and configerations, ... but even the most basic are more complicated than these POSSIBLE Japanese examples. I Think they fall more in line with the very small ones being either Nesuke, or alternatively Priming Powder Dribblers. These larger examples, ... I would suspect are more to do with either SIGNALLING, .... or as a Novelty Item used in conjunction with Fireworks. Europeans did use small cannon to give signal of approaching danger by a loud NOISE. Their examples sat flat on their butt and consisted of a barrel only with a touch hole. Loaded with a charge, and heavy wad they were ignited by touch hole, and made a loud bang as a signal. These Japanese items IF they have any great age are something of a mystery. Interesting items, .... but I have some scepticism. Ignor the " sights ", .... for some reason if it were related to gunpowder, .... the Japanese afixed sights even if said sights were totally useless. My guess is that they may well be " signalling devices " ... Ron Watson I was in fact wondering about the sights...I just do not think they are hand cannon.
watsonmil Posted June 27, 2010 Report Posted June 27, 2010 Dear Eric, I was looking over the photos you posted again, ... and I notice : 1. Both barrels have identical inlay around the muzzle. 2. Both stocks are virtually identical, even down to the depth of the stock/barrel bedding. 3. Both Touch Holes appear to be identically drilled ( note the counter-sink, ... and exact placement behind the rear sight ). 4. Both appear to never have been fired, or at least show NO indication of burning around the touch holes that I can see. 5. The blueing, and the amount of wear on each is pretty much identical. I'm beginning to be rather suspicious of them, .... as they both are in the possession of one dealer, ... and are just too similar to have been made by anyone but ONE maker. Again I am not saying the dealer is dishonest, .... as the reproduction and fantasy items are showing up on too regular a basis, .... and without a solid background in Japanese weaponry it can be VERY difficult to tell the genuine from the fantasy items and/or forgeries. This dealer certainly has some excellent pieces in European and other weapons, .... so I would say he may not realize the items may not be correct, .... or of course I could be incorrect, .... and it is simply coincidence that he aquired both somehow . ... Ron Watson
estcrh Posted June 27, 2010 Report Posted June 27, 2010 Dear Eric, I was looking over the photos you posted again, ... and I notice : 1. Both barrels have identical inlay around the muzzle. 2. Both stocks are virtually identical, even down to the depth of the stock/barrel bedding. 3. Both Touch Holes appear to be identically drilled ( note the counter-sink, ... and exact placement behind the rear sight ). 4. Both appear to never have been fired, or at least show NO indication of burning around the touch holes that I can see. I'm beginning to be rather suspicious of them, .... as they both are in the possession of one dealer, ... and are just too similar to have been made by anyone but ONE maker. Again I am not saying the dealer is dishonest, .... as the reproduction and fantasy items are showing up on too regular a basis, .... and without a solid background in Japanese weaponry it can be VERY difficult to tell the genuine from the fantasy items and/or forgeries. This dealer certainly has some excellent pieces in European and other weapons, .... so I would say he may not realize the items may not be correct, .... or of course I could be incorrect, .... and it is simply coincidence that he aquired both somehow . ... Ron Watson Ron, considering the examples of pretty good replicas or fakes, etc that I have seen recently I can see how someone with experience can be fooled. The arrow you posted and tsuba's are an example, look at the jutte example I posted in the Ebay auction section..it is at $500.00 and I have serious doubts as to its authenticity.
Bugyotsuji Posted June 27, 2010 Author Report Posted June 27, 2010 With supposed Japanese cannons you do have to be super careful. Matchlocks cannot really be reproduced as they would be illegal and would never get the To-roku paperwork. ( NB Having said that, you do see the odd example that has somehow cleverly made it through the net.) Cannons, or the other hand, having no moving parts, are not illegal without paperwork in Japan. So here is a market waiting to be tapped. You can use traditional artisans to make genuine-looking cannon of any size, add a bit of ageing, and Bob's your uncle. They don't even have to conform to any standards of strength as gunpowder is illegal anyway. Many are cast. You will find dealers and customers alike steer a wide passage around them, as it is safer to avoid buying a genuine one than trying to pass on a fake that you might have bought in error. Having just said all of the above, I do like the feel of the two that you have posted, Eric. Whether old or new, they look 'Japanese'. I wish I knew more about J cannon. In the meantime I would be doing extra homework first though, before considering buying them.
Bugyotsuji Posted June 27, 2010 Author Report Posted June 27, 2010 How big is a Kozuka? (On average?)
watsonmil Posted June 27, 2010 Report Posted June 27, 2010 Dear Piers, I've always been told size does not matter, ....... . Since you ask, .... mine are 3 3/4 inches in length, ... and give or take a fraction of a mm all are 9 /16 inch wide. AM I ABOVE OR BELOW AVERAGE .... that is the question :? . Very neat examples pictured by the way. ... Ron Watson
IanB Posted June 27, 2010 Report Posted June 27, 2010 Eric, Ron, Piers, Further to the supposed 'cannon' / 'eprovettes'. The comparison that shows the come from the same hand has been stated clearly by Ron. I would add that the hawk flying near the very attenuated Fuji looks as if it has been copied from a book. However, I do like the way the barrel lug is fitted - very professional. Might I suggest someone has used a couple of sections cut from an old barrel and utilised these features. I would also point out that the brass breech band would normally lap onto the barrel rather than just encompass the stock. Interesting but not in my opinion real. Ian
IanB Posted July 5, 2010 Report Posted July 5, 2010 Mr Sinclair, Whilst browsing today I came across this: http://cgi.ebay.com/EDO-Gusoku-Japanese ... 642wt_1137 Yet another identical dou. Ian Bottomley
Bugyotsuji Posted July 5, 2010 Author Report Posted July 5, 2010 Who is selling this? How many so far? I am a little surprised... PS While we are digesting that, I thought I'd add a little something to the pot. Only if you are bored. :lol: Picked these up at an early Sunday morning antiques market on the 27th June. Not exactly sure what I'll do with them, although there is a species of human that might need them, but can anyone guess what they are? (Length 21-22 cm)
sanjuro Posted July 5, 2010 Report Posted July 5, 2010 Railway spikes, I believe? Too damn big for hanging pictures on. :D But what are they made of?
Bugyotsuji Posted July 5, 2010 Author Report Posted July 5, 2010 Thanks for the attempt, sanjuro! Probably pre-railway...
IanB Posted July 5, 2010 Report Posted July 5, 2010 Piers, That makes three of these dou - one I own, one in Australia and now this in Japan. As for your spikes - They are virtually the same as those used in the UK during the Victorian period for holding up guttering. You banged them into the top of the house wall, just under the eves and then sited the wooden gutter on them. However, since they are Japanese, I'm stumped. Ian
Bugyotsuji Posted July 5, 2010 Author Report Posted July 5, 2010 Yes, I thought it might be three Ian. Odd isn't it, that they should start calling each other. As to the spikes, I do not know their specific usage. It could well be something along the lines of what you suggest. Yes, they are Japanese, and the answer to where they were used/not used is written on the little twist of paper. Anyone want to have a look?
watsonmil Posted July 5, 2010 Report Posted July 5, 2010 Dear Piers, My guess : .............. Execution Grounds .... Ron Watson
sanjuro Posted July 5, 2010 Report Posted July 5, 2010 Ron Do you mean crucifiction spikes? or Dodan Spikes (same thing really)? I didnt think they were quite as long as these. Tent pegs would have been my second guess.
Bugyotsuji Posted July 5, 2010 Author Report Posted July 5, 2010 Whoops, the discussion has taken an unexpected twist. Maybe a quick teaser might be in order. How's your Japanese at a distance??? :D Oh, and the species who might need these are people who create Gendaito, because...
sanjuro Posted July 5, 2010 Report Posted July 5, 2010 Cant read the Japanese...... Dammit Bugs (Sorry, I dont have permission to call you Bugs) but why cant you take clear pictures of the writing? These arent Tamahagane are they? (last Guess..... probably wrong).
Bugyotsuji Posted July 5, 2010 Author Report Posted July 5, 2010 Well, they are made with old iron, probably from Tamahagane, so traditional sword makers might want to drop one or two into the mix to increase the percentage of good stuff. For you, Sanjuro then, a clearer piccie! :D If you can't read this, then let's wait till someone puts us out of our misery!
estcrh Posted July 5, 2010 Report Posted July 5, 2010 Piers, That makes three of these dou - one I own, one in Australia and now this in Japan. As for your spikes - They are virtually the same as those used in the UK during the Victorian period for holding up guttering. You banged them into the top of the house wall, just under the eves and then sited the wooden gutter on them. However, since they are Japanese, I'm stumped.Ian Ian. are you suggesting that there was some sort of dou factory churning out close copies of the same style of dou? or something more sinister.
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