"custom Nco"

[Stegel]

 Didn't know NCO's were that interesting. Neil.  

They weren't at first for me, but as i looked into them, the bug bit. Passion grew and it began to border on obsession and now i've been called a chronic case by some!

By the way, i was looking at that sword for a friend of mine in NSW who (also got the bug) was chasing a copper handled sword to help complete his set.

[IJASWORDS]

Hi Stegel, YEP, that's the one, that's why its not on display, NON-MATCHING numbers, and not worth much. Apparently bought back from New Guinea by an AIF soldier, and sold by a relative. Neil.  

[Bruce Pennington]

They weren't at first for me, but as i looked into them, the bug bit. Passion grew and it began to border on obsession and now i've been called a chronic case by some!

By the way, i was looking at that sword for a friend of mine in NSW who (also got the bug) was chasing a copper handled sword to help complete his set.

Stegel, the square-ish inspector stamp on the 62,xxx sword - what do you think that is? I've always assumed it was the "To" of Tokyo, but now I'm not so sure)

[Stegel]

Bruce, do you mean the 52627 sword??

If you do, it is not very clear at all, but i admit the shape is not the same as the To 東 stamp.

It could be the Ho ホ  stamp, which is the Kokura Army Arsenal First Factory, which i think is theTokyo 1st factory.

I'll look into it and get back to you.

[IJASWORDS]

HI Bruce, Stegal, is this what you are asking about? Neil.

[Stegel]

Yes, i think thats what Bruce means.

Are you able to take a clearer photo to post here?

Cheers

[vajo]

The stamps should look sharp and clear.

[Dave R]

Here's another one from Chris Franklin, Sword Forum International:

 

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?118190-Curious-hybrid-sword

I have this one now, bought as a "bitser" for a price reflecting that fact. I think the nakago may have been reshaped, but done quite some time ago as the patina matches all over. Otherwise the blade is not dreadful, though a bit saw edged from abuse, minor pitting and overal patina,....

 Someone more expert than I thinks it is an unsigned Seki blade. No stamps or signature but rough Taka no Ha yasurimei, and a clearly discernible  hamon. Decent sharp ha and mune machi. I can put up detailed photo's if anyone wants them.

 The problem with this sort of sword is the question of "when was it assembled?" If it was definitely a wartime or service "fix", then I would keep it together. However, there is no paperwork such as a surrender tag etc, and it rattles in the hand much to much for me to see it as having been a usable combat weapon.

[Bruce Pennington]

I have this one now, bought as a "bitser" for a price reflecting that fact. I think the nakago may have been reshaped, but done quite some time ago as the patina matches all over. Otherwise the blade is not dreadful, though a bit saw edged from abuse, minor pitting and overal patina,....

 Someone more expert than I thinks it is an unsigned Seki blade. No stamps or signature but rough Taka no Ha yasurimei, and a clearly discernible  hamon. Decent sharp ha and mune machi. I can put up detailed photo's if anyone wants them.

 The problem with this sort of sword is the question of "when was it assembled?" If it was definitely a wartime or service "fix", then I would keep it together. However, there is no paperwork such as a surrender tag etc, and it rattles in the hand much to much for me to see it as having been a usable combat weapon.

Dave, love to see the pics! Ogling other people's swords' here, is the next best thing to ogling them in-hand!

[Dave R]

And here we are....

[Dave R]

Nakago.

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Dave! All real Japanese parts, but as you say, no way to know WHO put them together.

[Dave R]

Like most collectors I have a bits box, with enough pieces to remount the blade as a standard type 98, all original parts. However I will use new wood, same and ito where needed. Although I have enough original bits to avoid this they are sad and rotted and a blade deserves better when they are not the original pieces to the sword. 

 So it will still be a "bitser" but a better/prettier "bitser".

[Dave R]

Bumping this one up with a question. Can anyone tell me if the rather odd paint job on the tsuka relates in any way to an original colour scheme, or if it is most likely a post war repaint job.

[Baka Gaijin]

Hi Dave.,

 

Looks like a much later addition to me.

 

As I recall, a few of the swords from the massive collection of Sir Frank Bowden had been titivated with a similar red and gold paint.

 

Humbrol and Japlac were UK brands available in the 1960's that could be brush-painted to give such a smooth finish.

 

(Much of the Legendary Bowden Collection was sold through Christies in the early 80's)

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1364912/Sir-Frank-Bowden-Bt.html

[Bruce Pennington]

Dave,

 

Unusual paint scheme, for sure! I've seen them with the black, and I believe I've seen a couple of Stegel's examples that were red, but I can't say I've ever seen one with both! (everytime I say something like that, Stegel comes in with an actual example! Ha!)

 

I see 2 things that COULD indicate it was post war: 1) A section of the red paint seems to be lifting off on one of the ito folds, and 2) red paint on the cherry blossom - with all the color variations I've seen, the blossom (when the paint was still there) was gold.

 

My very thin opinion is that the black is original and the red was added.

[Dave R]

Like most collectors I have a bits box, with enough pieces to remount the blade as a standard type 98, all original parts. However I will use new wood, same and ito where needed. Although I have enough original bits to avoid this they are sad and rotted and a blade deserves better when they are not the original pieces to the sword. 

 So it will still be a "bitser" but a better/prettier "bitser".

  

 

And here it is now, cleaned and remounted. I am not wonderfully happy about the Ito, having gone for cotton rather than silk.... But really I don't think it worth paying more for the Ito than I did for the blade. If it really bugs me I can always re do it.

  There is a general feeling among the Northern To-Ken members that the blade is Taisho or Showa made in Seki, and probably not tamahagane. Possibly had an earlier life as a Kyu-Gunto, and then into a Shin-Gunto .

[Dave R]

 After some thought I have tried swapping out the kabutogane for a more robust example, which lacks the gilding but is more in proportion.

[Shamsy]

It's come up very nicely Dave. The choice to swap out the kabutogane was a good one. I thought the first was a little under proportioned, but the second sits nicely and complements the koshirae.

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes, nice gunto!

[Baka Gaijin]

Hi Dave.,

 

I agree the second choice of Kabutogane looks the part.

 

Job well done.

[brannow]

I have had a few like the one that started the thread over the years.  I still actually have one.  Always considered them post war put togethers.

[Shamsy]

Hi Bill, good to see you around.

 

Since this thread started I have done some further research and reading and thanks to the tireless efforts of Nick learned that in 1937 officers were actually allowed to purchase an NCO sword as a fairly desperate measure to meet demand. Therefore, considering this was a private purchase, it is conceivable that an officer may have switched the machine made blade with one more traditionally made.

 

I think though that even as a bit of a risk-taker, I will be steering well clear of these swords, as a lack of habaki and generally awkward looking construction definitely leaves me with the original opinion I formulated.

[Dave R]

I have had a few like the one that started the thread over the years.  I still actually have one.  Always considered them post war put togethers.

 

 I think the bulk of them are "dealers special bargains". As you say, post war put togethers. Which is a bit rich on my part as I am putting some together myself.