"custom Nco"

[Shamsy]

Hi all,

 

I'm sure some of you must have seen this pop onto eBay in the last few days;

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUPER-RARE-Prototype-Japanese-Army-WWII-NCO-Sword-Katana-Tachi-Dagger-Tanto-Dirk-/302063081264?hash=item46545cd730:g:p2QAAOSwOdpXzgN

 

In my humble opinion it looks very much like a put - together piece being passed off as a 'rare prototype'. I've seen enough real prototype 95's to be leery.

 

My personal opinion aside, if you do decide to try your luck and win, could you please take the handle off and provide some photos of the handle without the wooden inserts and the blade nakago also. When I asked, the seller was not prepared to do so.

 

I don't feel the need to list my reasons for believing this is a put - together, but if anyone wants to open that discussion we can.

[Greg F]

Gday Steve, the seller refusing to remove the tsuka can show pics of the nakago is definitely not a good sign.

Did they give any reason for not doing so? They sell other swords so removing it is likely something they would be familiar with doing. Cheers.

 

Greg

[Stephen]

Kinda back the seller here, very seldom anything to be seen on nco nakago and they just dont go back together tight. Dont see the point.

[Greg F]

Ahh that makes sense Stephen. Cheers.

 

Greg

[Bruce Pennington]

But removing it would show if the nakago had been modified to fit the NCO tsuka. There's no kissaki, but there are marks visable where a kissaki once was. I've seen a version 1 without a bohi (fuller groove), plenty on the late-war, but not the aluminum handle. Dawson, page 192-3 has a copper handle prototype that is really aluminum, coated with copper, but EVERYTHING is aluminum - blade, saya, tsuba, tsuka. It was the first of the breed so I could understand why there would be prototypes.

 

Honestly what this gunto makes me think of are the days when they were short of gunto (early stages of the war) and officers were having to use NCO gunto because there just weren't enough officer gunto. This blade without serial number (and fuchi without stamps) may have been fitted with NCO tsuka and saya simply because there were no officer fittings available.

 

Another possibility is that an NCO with a broken blade (pics of such available) got his hands on an officer blade and swapped them out.

[Stephen]

Please expand on what you mean no kissaki?

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Dang, I hate it when I do that! No habaki.

[Dave R]

Lots of flags and bells here. 

[Shamsy]

Kinda back the seller here, very seldom anything to be seen on nco nakago and they just dont go back together tight. Dont see the point.

Very true Stephen. But this is not a mass produced NCO blade. It is an older Wak blade in NCO mounts.

 

Bruce: I think that while those theories are possible, they are highly unlikely. There were a shortage of blades for officers, that is true. But NCO swords are mass produced and issued as equipment. I believe NCO did have the option to supply their own sword if they could afford it. I cannot imagine though that someone thought to try and mount a wakizashi blade in supplied fittings.

 

As a replacement, that seems even less likely. The tsuka holes are supposed to be undrilled and the fuchi unstamped. Does it seem plausible that these were just lying aside and easily available for a repair?

 

As a prototype is even more questionable. The NCOs never experienced a blade shortage. Indeed, there were a phenomenal number made. Why mount a Wak blade? Every other prototype I've seen has been an experiment in material or slight design variations. This is completely different. The Japanese were also quite meticulous yet this sword lacks a habaki and feels very put together. That is why I want to see the nakago. It doesn't even fit the saya.

 

My feeling is a Wak in modern made NCO mounts being called a prototype. But unless someone here buys it we'll not be able to ascertain that with any real certainty. So.... After all that, someone please buy :D

[Stephen]

Yes i see now was going by topic title, but whos going to buy to find out?

[Mark]

thing i cant wrap my mind around is NO HABAKI....  Would the Japanese do this even with a prototype? makes no sense, the habaki holds the blade in the saya, it centers it and makes a tight fit so no rattle. I can understand the possibility of the rest but not that

[Stegel]

Hi All,

I'm inclined to agree with it being a post war put together and not a prototype.

There have been two such handles sold on ebay in the last 6 months or so, both painted and undrilled Aluminium types.

The prototypes are not painted the same as the regular issued ones, they are anodised instead.

 

These last of the 'pre-copper' handled prototypes also did not have habiki, the blade was thicker for about 40mm then formed to the normal blade shape...similar to the type 32 guntos issued at the time.

 

Mark the one you sold a while back had been the same, but the latch fitting on the scabbard had been repaired by someone familiar with the type 95's as they did a good job on it.

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Here's another one from Chris Franklin, Sword Forum International:

 

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?118190-Curious-hybrid-sword

[Baka Gaijin]

Hi Bruce,

 

Ref the sword shown by Mr Franklyn, did you spot that the Haikan suspension mount is the wrong side of the Saya (As too are the leather combat cover fittings).

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Hi Bruce,

 

Ref the sword shown by Mr Franklyn, did you spot that the Haikan suspension mount is the wrong side of the Saya (As too are the leather combat cover fittings).

 

OH MY GOSH!!!! If it was a snake, it would have bit me; as they say!!! I actually laughed out loud when I went back to see that. Thanks Malcolm. Ok, I take back everything I've postulated about an NCO putting that together (howsomever, I HAVE known some NCOs over the years that could have done something as bone-headed as that!!!)

[Shamsy]

I think with all the discussion in this thread I'm fairly confident that my original assessment of a put - together was correct. I've seen NCOs with scabbards from other swords but not one that appears (since we've not seen it disassembled) to be put together like these. Hopefully it's just an oddity from someone trying to make quick bucks and the invention of 'new patters' won't become a regular thing.

[Shamsy]

I'm sure we've all seen this by now.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-Japanese-ARMY-NCO-TYPE-95-COMBAT-SWORD-UNUSUAL-VARIATION-HANDMADE-BLADE-/391579500282?hash=item5b2bf4fefa:g:yd0AAOSw8w1X7uff

 

That could almostbe the same sword. It looks identical to the other that sold for 1k. Is someone putting these together? I retain my original opinion this is a out together with modern parts. Will ask for it to be disassembled again.

[IJASWORDS]

Hi, joined NMB today and getting used to posting. Needed to work out how to load photos, so here goes. Saw a section on custom NCO's and thought I would share one of mine. Certainly over here (in Australia) these are pretty rare. I have been collecting for a while, and reading the posts, most interesting. This is completely leather covered, only exposing the decorative elements of the sword. Every thing is as new under the leather. Any comments are appreciated. Neil.   

[Brian]

Is that leather covering the entire grip, only open to show the diamonds?
That would be most unusual, and probably lead to a sword in terrific condition. Looks good so far, nice find.

[IJASWORDS]

Hi, yes over entire grip, tightly stitched, and only open at the diamonds. It is in great condition. Got a brand spanking new uncirculated NCO if you are interested in seeing photos. Got a bit of a collection of WW2 IJA swords. But particularly like to collect examples with old blades. Neil.

[Greg F]

Hello Neil, Welcome to another Ozzy, Thats a very interesting Tsuka cover. I wouldn't mind a look at the uncirculated NCO. Cheers.

 

Greg

[Bruce Pennington]

Neil, love to see them all. Can you show the serial number of this one?

[IJASWORDS]

Hi, attached photos of uncirculated NCO. Don't know if photos are clear enough to show detail. The SARUTE is painted brown (most examples rust quickly), and it is noteworthy that even on a machine made NCO, there is an attempt at a YOKOTE on the tip. Thanks for welcoming another "Ozzy", we have some pretty good stuff down here, there are many collectors that are not on NMB, as was I until yesterday. Thanks...Neil.  

[IJASWORDS]

Hi, forgot to add that brass and copper components have the patina of age, and have never been polished or touched, that's why they look dull. Painted surfaces still remain with good appearance. Neil.

[IJASWORDS]

Hi, I don't really collect NCO's, but attach a photo of some of my examples (certainly got all the types in DAWSONS book). I guess if you collect WW2 IJA swords, they are a necessary part of sword history and evolution. Neil.

[Shamsy]

Hi Neil and welcome!

 

This tread is actually not intended for custom NCO. I raised it as an FYI for a little discussion when there were some pretty suspicious put-togethers being peddled on ebay. Your leather covered sword is fantastic, I've not seen one as extensively covered as that before. What a beaut! Most of the ebay NCO with covers are not original which is obvious as the leather covers slip over the saya, has the field saya drag and have clearly come straight from 98 field saya. This example is beyond doubt supposed to belong to the sword.

 

Your other NCO swords are great to. Seeing a couple of nice examples of rare swords. The brass shouls never be polished anyway because it not only makes the sword ugly but is tantamount to destroying a beautiful patina earned over many years. I also had an unissued sword, though it was the first variant of the wooden handle NCO. It was absolutely mint and the blade was cosmoline stained from storage. I sold it sadly, wish I hadn't now. Hindsight hey?

 

I collect mostly NCO and have a few Gendi blades as well as a couple of old wakizashi and a few rare military swords. I sold most of my standard gunto though to focus on NCO and military gendaito. Great to see another Aussie on the board. Cheers

[Stegel]

Firstly welcome Neil , some fine looking pieces you have there, thanks for showing them to us!

 

 

I'm sure we've all seen this by now.

    http://www.ebay.com/...d0AAOSw8w1X7uff

    That could almostbe the same sword. It looks identical to the other that sold for 1k. Is someone putting these together? I retain my original opinion this is a out together with modern parts. Will ask for it to be disassembled again.
 

 

This one has definitely been pulled apart, most likely to see the nakago. Look at the seppa..... they are placed incorrectly on either side of the tsuba.

I'm inclined to agree with you Steve, adter collecting these for over 20yrs, and only seeing 2 examples in that time, i think this is a bit tooo much of a coincidence for these to be genuine examples.

[Stegel]

Neil,

for someone who doesn't collect NCO swords, you've done alright!!

Are you able to show us the serial nunber of the one with the combat covers to help determine if it is a Tokyo or Nagoya piece?

Also a picture of the other side of the handle of the mint sword (tokyo produced)... any contractor markings?

Cheers

[IJASWORDS]

Hi, hope these pictures help. #52627, and #80442. Fairly low numbers in the scheme of things. May be you could give me some feedback on these, as NCO's are not my chosen study. Got a few more NCO's somewhere, if they are interesting I will post photos. By the way got another Copper 95 in a yellowy gold SAYA, no signs of it not being original, and no signs of any other previous colour either. It is #1719 if that helps. Didn't know NCO's were that interesting. Neil.  

[Stegel]

Thanks for the photos Neil, they are both from the Tokyo 1st Arsenal while it was under Kokura Administration.

I would love to see the copper handled sword you speak of, No: 1719. Is that the blade serial number?

I would guess that the scabbard is a different serial number as i nearly bought a sword from St.Kilda over a year ago with that scabbard. The Blade was numbered 4131 . Heres some photos...