a strange ken

[Marius]

Dear all,

 

what do you make of this ken? It has been offered on eBay by Mike Yamaguchi a few years ago (I used to own it then I decided to sell it off). It has no habaki, the upper part of the nakago holds the blade firmly in the saya. Most puzzling - the nakago is at a mild angle to the nagasa.

 

What is it? A shrine offering? A reshaped tanto?

 

Some pics attached.

 

Best regards

[remzy]

Looks like a normal, tired ken to me, altho the tiredness is somewhat unusual, too bad you sold it off i would have been interested in making a habaki for that

[Marius]

Looks like a normal, tired ken to me, altho the tiredness is somewhat unusual, too bad you sold it off i would have been interested in making a habaki for that

 

Remy,

 

have a look at the sugata then. What do you make of the sori? BTW, the ken did not feel or looked tired at all.

 

Have a look at these pics: http://web.mac.com/mariuszk/iWeb/Site/ken.html

 

Best regards

[Grey Doffin]

I think Remy figures it has been polished down a lot (the difference of thickness above the nakago) and thus calls it tired. This isn't the result of over polishing; it was made that way and was made to be mounted as is, without a habaki.

Very interesting piece. Any idea which Kuniyuki made it?

Grey

[Joseph P.]

Guys,

In my opinion, this is a cut-down yari. I have been researching different types of yari, and I came across the one that looks like this ken and saved it for later, so I will try to find some more pictures of said yari, and try to figure out the yari type

Notice the raised area near the nakago, that is common in yari.

 

http://arco-iris.com/George/images/yari_4_oshigata.jpg

(Pay attention to the three yari on the left, their basic shape.)

 

Though it is the nakago that puzzles me..

[BC Smith]

My first impression is that the blade does look similar to sankaku yari, but the nakago is wrong for one. Looking at the block effect where the nakago is "attached" on could this be the answer? A nakago joined onto a yari to make a ken? :? A very skilful job if this was done. Perhaps for some special purpose that we will never know about.

I've seen one or two yari converted into "tanto" but they had retained the typical yari nakago.

[Gabriel L]

I do not believe this was ever a yari.

 

I've seen some yari converted into ken, and they don't look like this. The "block" effect is much more dramatic and much thicker, for one. The nakago looks somewhat thick here but it's partly a bit of cognitive dissonance: we're not used to seeing a substantial nakago edge next to the thin blade edge, which is a necessary consequence of how the nakago/shinogi/edge all meet on this particular blade (unless you made the nakago more oval/diamond in cross-section). The photography -- specifically shadows/angles -- enhance this (mis)perception as well. Could you perhaps tell us how thick it *actually* is?

 

Besides which, the bend or sori at the nakago would make even less sense in a yari than in an interesting ken/tanto blade.

 

I agree that it seems to be an atypical ken/tanto but it is kind of weird. Maybe it's intended to resemble a yari (i.e. a "yari-naoshi-saku ken" hahaha). I am not entirely confident for example that the nakago was meant to be used as an integral habaki; note the suggestions of hamachi, as well as the placement of the top character of the mei. Perhaps the current mounts are after-the-fact adaptations that happen to work that way? Because making a habaki to fit it would be difficult?

 

My only reasons for believing any of this I've listed above; this is truly opinion although I've stated it a bit strongly. :lol: I welcome any contradictions though because it's a really neat piece and I'd love to get a better understanding of what it really is.

 

Cheers,

-GLL

[Marius]

Could you perhaps tell us how thick it *actually* is?

 

My friend who owns the blade says it is around 5 mm thick. So this is the thickness of a tanto blade.

 

I asked my friend for some close-ups. He is not a good photographer though... so maybe there will be no pictures...

 

best regards

[Joseph P.]

Maybe it is just a funky looking thing somebody did for fun. :lol:

 

Gabriel, that is a very complex thought, but it makes sense. I have been thinking and looking around, and I thought this might be a piece of a Jumonji/Magari yari. Notice the off-set bevel line where the improvised habaki is. It doesn't start off straight, it is curved. This could also be what causes the small curve. Though, it seems a little long for the side of a Jumonji, we will never surely know. We would need to see it in person to really get to the bottom of the mystery. It could also be a cut down Omi yari.

 

Though, as previously stated, it is the nakago that is confusing. Notice the curve that I pointed out earlier, plus the strange sori. This might be the result of a side piece, or something else that is curved.

Also, most "Kuniyuki" were Shinto and Koto.

[Martin]

the geometry of this blade is indeed a bit strange - either over-polished (due to chips maybe) or the blade was something else when it was "born"...

There is also a slight Sori within the Nakago. Did Ken actually have a (Nakago-) Sori

 

cheers,

[Jean]

I thought at first of a sansaku yari, but it is not as both sides are symetrical http://web.mac.com/mariuszk/iWeb/Site/ken.html

 

Here is a yari with a similar shape :

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/yari/4sword05.html

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/yari/4sword10.html

 

Have alook at the base of this one :

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/sword/yari/04053.html

 

I really don't know what to think .... Could be a ken ...

[Marius]

Inhave dug out some more information on this ken. It was the blades description on eBay by Mike Yamaguchi (historian333):

 

" Nagasa: 8.75". Moto-haba: 1.0". Moto-kasane: 0.6". _Toko

taikan_ lists 4 koto smiths and 1 shinto smith who signed "Kuniyuki." I don't know which one this blade is attributable to. The koshirae (aikuchi) appears to be fairly new. Unlike ordinary ken which is usually entirely symmetrical from the blade through the nakago, this one is made asymmetical toward the bottom of the blade with slight "sori" given to the nakago. The nakago is considerably thicker (0.75") than the thickness measured at the shinogi line, so the saya is designed to house the blade without a habaki. I believe this is the way the blade was constructed and not a result of togi-heri. Ken were often made as an offering to shrines and temples (rather than as a weapon), and this might have been such a blade."

 

Maybe this will help? I am still puzzled as much as you are....

 

Best regards

[IanB]

All,

I think the fact that the mei is so near to the blade rules out any sort of yari, except perhaps a kikuchi yari, which is a totally different shape anyway. All conventional yari have a narrow nakago to enable it to be fitted into the wood of the shaft, whereas this sword has the nakago almost as wide as the blade. It can hardly have been made from the blade of a yari since the edges of the existing nakago are too thick, there would not have been sufficient metal unless the whole blade was made narrower. This suggests to me that it was made the way it is, slight curve and all. The Royal Armouries has a very similar tanto, but not as swollen at the tip, that states it it is a copy of the upper part of Kogarasu Maru. That too has the slight deviation between the axis of the blade and nakago.

Ian Bottomley

[Gabriel L]

Thanks for the input Mr. B, that all makes sense to me. Also Mike Yamaguchi's original eBay description is telling in how the nakago actually tapers in thickness (from 0.75" to 0.6" at the shinogi). Given that tidbit I actually now think I was wrong regarding the nakago not originally being an integral habaki. Well, I'm not sure. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't.

[John A Stuart]

The fact that this sword has sori in the nakago does not bother me at all. There were many swords produced that had this feature although they were not ken but tachi. In this case it actually goes to prove tnat it was never a yari, as if that shape of nakago did not already illustrate that point. I am interested in the balance of it. That type of kissaki would pull the centre of balance forward giving more momentum to a slashing strike than another short sword of equal length. As to why there is so much difference in the two sides at the machi may have to do with function when in koshirae, but ????? John

[Ford Hallam]

hmm, I think this is a reshaped tanto with a "cosmetically" applied hamon.

 

The second photo appears to show the remains of a mune just before the nakago/rusted area begins. This along with the fact that the side with what I see as the left over mune is less curved adds to my opinion that this is not it's original shape. Funny enough the hamon follows the shape perfectly, if it is actually a hamon(?). Any better images of the edge available?

 

In this area too the hamon seems to be bordered quite sharply by an adjacent area of burnished metal. I don't believe therefore that what looks like a hamon is in fact all that hard. I don't believe it would be possible to produce such a perfectly defined and abrupt step from a hardened edge to an area that could be burnished like this.

 

The idea that the first section of the nakago may have been an integral "habaki" doen't have anything to support it and then one would have to wonder what the effect of constantly sticking a rusty bit of metal into the mouth of your saya would be. I shudder to think!

 

The mounts also appear to me to be rather new.

 

Just my opinions though.

 

Regards to all, Ford

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

My two cents,

 

Looking at the sugata of this blade i think it is a tanto or a sunobi one which is reshaped into a yari . Cause can be a big nick into the blade.

[John A Stuart]

Ford brings up a good point in that this koshirae was made for display only, with the nakago being exposed like that. What does the other side look like? Does it have a shinogi there too? John

 

If this was ever sankozuka mounted the nakago would cause difficulties, wouldn't it? Without that type of mounting, does it no longer become a shrine sword but a functional otanto or kowakizashi?

[Joseph P.]

Due to what Ian said, it is probably true this was not a yari.

I guess it was just a funky looking thing somebody did. :D Though it is strange how the nakago is exposed, most likely for show. Though, since the koshirae are relatively new, we might be able to say somebody recently did this to show off some part of the signature. (Or maybe a mistake) Unfortunately, we can never be sure. Since the majority of Kuniyuki were Koto and Shinto smiths, it might have been some battlefield tanto.

[IanB]

All,

I have just remembered that there is a very similar sword in Nikko Toshogu Shrine by Hisakuni.

Ian Bottomley