Would One Call A Nagamaki A Special Order Item?

[Daso]

If that is what you want to believe, then by all means don't let anyone tell you different.

 

 

 

 

Yes.

Care to share? I'm here to learn

[nagamaki - Franco]

Darius, 

 

You need to start doing your own homework. Books! And in just a short few minutes searching there are numerous internet websites and posts where you can begin finding answers.

[Jacques D.]

Definitely a converted pole arm rather than a wakizashi made in this shape. Referring to the papers, a naginatanaoshi. On the basis of the blade alone, refer to the shape and length of the nakago along with the positioning of the mekugi-ana.

 

Best regards,

Ray

 

I have to disagree.

 

Naginata naoshi means  that the kissaki was reshaped, it's not the case here. It's a wakizashi made in naginata naoshi tsukuri.

[Jean]

Btw, for NBTHK, Nagamaki don't exist. Whatever naginata or nagamaki, all kanteisho refer to Naginata naoshi.

[Guido]

Naginata naoshi means  that the kissaki was reshaped, ...

 

Not necessarily: the verb naosu 直す just means “to correct, repair, change, alter, convert“.

 

However, it’s my impression,too, that the kissaki wasn’t altered, at least not significantly. The placement of the mei, mekuginana, and the (still) long, obviously shortened nakago, OTOH, are a clear indication that this blade was born as a naginata; if naginata-naoshi-zukuri, the NBTHK wouldn’t have mentioned that, and just put wakizashi on the papers.

[Guido]

Btw, for NBTHK, Nagamaki don't exist. Whatever naginata or nagamaki, all kanteisho refer to Naginata naoshi.

 

Well, nagamaki do exist for them, but since it originally refers to a mounting style, they discontinued using the term in papers for blades. Kind of a "historical correctness."   

[Ray Singer]

And I need to disagree in kind Jacques. Aside from the kissaki, as Guido said naginatanaoshi does not exclusively refer to a modified kissaki, there is other evidence that this sword began life as a naginata. Look at the nakago, long with little tapering and a positioning of the mekugi-ana far lower in relation to the ha-machi than you would expect otherwise.

 

Best regards,

Ray

 

I have to disagree.

 

Naginata naoshi means that the kissaki was reshaped, it's not the case here. It's a wakizashi made in naginata naoshi tsukuri.

[Jacques D.]

I don't want to slip in semantic controverse.

 

What say text books about naginata naoshi ?

 

 

Topic closed for me.

 

 

ps a naginata may be made in naginata naoshi tsukuri... NO ?

[Daso]

Thank you all. I think I'll close this topic on the simple fact that this is overshadowing that it is a beautiful healthily Toku H sword that I am thrilled to have and lucky to add to collection. Thanks to those who provided helpful points. Have a great weekend. Topic closed.

[Guido]

Topic closed.

 

That's up to the moderators. Besides, this thread is still very much on topic with many well made points (except for the usual outlandish claims by Jacques).

 

What actually overshadows an academic discussion are remarks like "this blade was made for brutal attacks".

[Daso]

I suppose most swords were made to tend to our Posies and lawns my friend. Let us not allow the true form of these items to be forgotten and respected by the spectacular art and work put into them (if you abhore the thought of their true intent then may I suggest Japanese prints or carved miniatures). I made the comment that this sword seems as though it was made for a brutal attack and by that I meant its heft is by far more intimidating than some of my Katana or wakizashi, I then apologize for some hyperbole . It is a heavy strong blade much thicker than some katana. I am sure your experience by far overshadows mine by many an eon but I have collected antiquities for 20 years and there is a large difference between what a ceremonial African sword or weapon, a 3000 year old luristan bronze long sword (which I collect as well) and a Katana. The bronze sword and the Japanese swords were meant to fight or possibly show off as well. Don't dig for fuel my friend.

[Daso]

Something far less brutal and best for everyone's Sunday morning. Especially those riled up. ????????

 

Ps. I tried to make the pancakes in Katana form but they fell apart sorry. Not the same strength as Tamahagane

[Ed Harbulak]

One might also consider that most naginata are thicker, heavier bodied blades than equivalent length wakizashi. When you mount a blade on the end of a 6 foot or longer pole and start swinging it around, it's going to be under quite a bit of stress when it hits something. Because of its intended use, it stands to reason it should be a more robust blade. That extra mass is also a reason for thinking this blade was originally intended to be a naginata.

[Daso]

One might also consider that most naginata are thicker, heavier bodied blades than equivalent length wakizashi. When you mount a blade on the end of a 6 foot or longer pole and start swinging it around, it's going to be under quite a bit of stress when it hits something. Because of its intended use, it stands to reason it should be a more robust blade. That extra mass is also a reason for thinking this blade was originally intended to be a naginata.

I agree and do think that all are in agreement that this was born as such (a Naginata). I think the conversation started to get a bit wider in scope than I intended.

[Greg F]

I thought there was a chance of it being a waki but after reading what Ray had to say about the nakago etc im now fairly convinced this blade started as a naginata. Either way its a very nice blade and with lots of enjoyment to be had.

 

Greg

[Markus]

That's up to the moderators. Besides, this thread is still very much on topic with many well made points (except for the usual outlandish claims by Jacques).

 

 

Yes, mod's please keep this topic alive for a little as it is indeed a very interesting piece. 

 

Imagine you have this thing at a kantei. You lift it up and realize that it has a highly uncommon shape: naginata-zukuri on the one, and shinogi-zukuri with full bohi on the other side. You got a yokote, what is common for naginata remodelled into katana or wakizashi as Franco said. So you probably scratch your head about the shape, thinking of a possible naginata-naoshi or naginata-naoshi-zukuri (in the sense of the former being a shortened naginata and the latter being a blade that imitates a shortened naginata). So you check the jigane and hamon and everything else and you realize that you have like a full boshi with kaeri as if just made that way (look at the oshigata), that makes you scratch your head again: Either the original naginata was hardly any wider and/or curved like the blade looks now, or it was really just made like that... At this point, I would probably dismiss the naginata-naoshi approach and would think of a beefy kind of naginata-style wakizashi made that way.

 

So then the hilt comes off and you realize that well, it is indeed a naoshi, i.e. it was once a longer naginata whose tang was cut off, what is confirmed by the paper. Now you scratch your head for the third time as everything points towards the shape of the blade itself being pretty much ubu. But what strikes me is that the mei is on the ura side and all this, i.e. the sheer rarity of all these elements together, makes me think (copying Darious' thread title), that this blade might indeed be a very special order. 

 

I even imagine a guy who wanted to have a naginata but one that should make it later into a wakizashi as easily as possible (i.e. not much curved, which would be a pain in the ass to reshape later, but in the first place still with a naginata kind of shape with the unokubi and the naginata-hi). 

 

[Edited for typos]

[nagamaki - Franco]

One lesson learned among many from reading Han Bing Siong's writings is that if you're going to write about a sword one needs to list and include all the measurements, taken carefully. This should be done for sword record keeping purposes at the least. Often these measurements especially when a sword is suspected of having undergone changes can tell a story. Facts are facts, opinion is opinion. 

 

Darius, if you would be so kind?

 

Blade length, Moto-haba, Moto-kasane, Sake-haba, Sake-kasane, Nakago length.  Any additional measurements with observations (such as sori, taper at widest & narrowest point), would be welcomed, too.

 

Thank you.

Edited September 4, 2016 by nagamaki

[Daso]

One lesson learned among many from Han Bing Siong's writings is that if you're going to write about a sword one needs to list and include all the measurements, taken carefully. This should be done for sword record keeping at the least. Often these measurements especially when a sword is suspected of having undergone changes can tell a story. Facts are facts, opinion is opinion. 

 

Darius, if you would be so kind?

 

Blade length, Moto-haba, Moto-kasane, Sake-haba, Sake-kasane, Nakago length.  

 

Thank you.

Nagamaki, absolutely. I will post the information you asked for as soon as I get home this evening. Just out enjoying day.

[Daso]

Markus, thank you. These thoughts echo my much shallower interpretation and thoughts on the blade. The oshigata was a nice piece for me to have access to as well. It's quite a piece to hold. I going to post all the information for Nagimaki a bit later. I can attempt to take any other photos people like to illustrate points. I am happy with a constructive thread

[seattle1]

Hello:

 Wow, this interesting thread has more strands than an octopus has tentacles!

 Guido, do you perhaps know when the NBTHK discontinued the designation "nagamaki" for blades, and restricted its use to koshirae I presume? They also seem to now have a rather unusual designation "naga-katana" which seems to be for a blade shaped very much like a katana but with a long nakago, perhaps as long as a nagamaki would have, and clearly intended to be mounted as a polearm.

 Arnold F.

[Daso]

 

One lesson learned among many from reading Han Bing Siong's writings is that if you're going to write about a sword one needs to list and include all the measurements, taken carefully. This should be done for sword record keeping purposes at the least. Often these measurements especially when a sword is suspected of having undergone changes can tell a story. Facts are facts, opinion is opinion. 

 

Darius, if you would be so kind?

 

Blade length, Moto-haba, Moto-kasane, Sake-haba, Sake-kasane, Nakago length.  Any additional measurements with observations (such as sori, taper at widest & narrowest point), would be welcomed, too.

 

Thank you.

 

 

Nagasa - 22.36"

Moto-Haba - 1.34"

Moto-Kasane - approx. .29"

Sake-Haba - 1.13"

Sake-Kassane - .26"

Nakago - 8 1/4"

Kissaki - 3.5"

Sori - approx. 1/4"

Blade starts to taper gradually at 8"

 

Hope this helps

 

Regards,

Darius

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hello,

 

Thank you for posting dimensions. Nothing out of the ordinary stands out.

 

Thoughts, 1) based upon reviewing all of the images again my belief is that the kissaki has indeed been reshaped. The apex of the boshi suggests that the tip once extended up and out more and that area was fully tempered. 2) It is also my impression that bo hi modification has taken place on the ura side, and perhaps even more than once as the portion of the bo hi which extends into the kissaki does not look to me to be cut by the same hand as the rest. 

 

 

http://www.thesamuraiworkshop.com/userfiles/reviews/naginata-naoshi/49_Nagayama.jpg

 

[Daso]

Nagamaki, thank you it is a noted conclusion and one to add to the other experienced conclusions that have been posted by much more experienced collectors than me. In hand there is no discernable difference at any point on the Bohi I can see suggesting multiple additions but Thank you.

[nagamaki - Franco]

 conclusions that have been posted by much more experienced collectors than me. 

 

And me, too.

 

One final thought from me. It is essential before we begin to draw our own conclusions that we go out and look at as many examples as possible of what we are talking about in addition to reading texts and consulting experts. Although there will be the exception on some occasions, for the most part the making of Nihonto followed orderly predictable patterns and methods. Which is one reason why we can look at a modified piece and make educated observations. To that end I have looked at many naginata naoshi (images) since this thread began and have learned from it. So thank you Darius, and all.

[Markus]

I agree with Franco, great learning experience. 

 

And Darius, I think you made a good buy in the very sense of a study object that will keep you fascinated for a long time. You did your homework. I mean, there are plenty of other, standard blades out there by Kunisuke, so it takes some balls going for this one as you were following your taste even if such blades are surely out of the box. But smartly with a safety rope, the Tokubetsu-Hozon papers, what tells us that even if reshaped (and I still think it is pretty close to ubu), the NBTHK recognized its importance. I'm really curious right now how many remodelled shinto era naginata got Tokubetsu-Hozon (all juyo naginata by him are unaltered naginata of course). Kunisuke was surely a great master but as mentioned, it's not like that it passed Tokubetsu-Hozon just because there are only three blades of him known...

 

[Daso]

Markus, thank you for putting it in such perspective. It was definitely a departure from what I felt fully safe with but it was an opportunity that merited my aquiring it on a few levels (including the Tokubetsu ). As much as I would Iove to be able to have a closet full of swords I made the decision to try to have one good example of each type of sword available to me easily for study. This is the outrigger but It was one of those opportunities that fell in my lap and I couldn't turn down. I look forward to showing it in person to the good people at the NY token Kai for their reaction in person as well. I wish I could show in person as well to the NMB board members, it's condition and presence is incredible.

[Guido]

Guido, do you perhaps know when the NBTHK discontinued the designation "nagamaki" for blades, and restricted its use to koshirae I presume?

 

Nowadays I'm happy if I remember my own birthday, let alone when the NBTHK changed designations , but IIRC it was in the eighties.

 

They also seem to now have a rather unusual designation "naga-katana" which seems to be for a blade shaped very much like a katana but with a long nakago, perhaps as long as a nagamaki would have, and clearly intended to be mounted as a polearm.

 

I'v never heard about/seen that. If written 長刀, the correct reading is actually chōtō - however, it's also a seldomly used character combination that's pronunced (and means) naginata. Do you have any examples of them using this recently?

[Jacques D.]

As already said, i don't want to enter in semantic controverse, but it seems, the NBTHK makes the difference between naoshi and suriage.

 

http://www.nihonto.us/BIZEN%20MASAMITSU%20JUYO.htm

 

On tokubetsu hozon it is never said if the nakago is ubu or suriage only the general shape is provided.

 

 

i return in my hole 

[Guido]

i return in my hole 

 

The one you're digging yourself into deeper and deeper?

 

Suriage on a katana doesn't change the fact that it's still a katana. Suriage on a naginata changes it into a katana/wakizashi, hence the term naoshi.

 

Nice try.

[seattle1]

Hello:

 Guido, the blade I was thinking of called a "naga-katana" is a Dewa Daijo F/W Kunimichi, 1.9 shaku with a slightly longer ubu nakago and awarded a Tokubetsu Hozon in Heisei 26 (2014), using the kanji you show. I have a copy of the original torokusho registration certificate, dated Showa 26  (1951), and it has the "naga-katana" designation there as well. Perhaps there is some convention when a torokusho exits for the NBTHK to subsequently use the same terminology. I think there were a number of these blades made by Kunimichi as special order, perhaps for some Daimyo.

 One of them may be the one illustrated by Iida Kazuo in his Yari, Naginata Nyumon (1973), p. 58, there called a naginata I think. That same blade was subsequently owned by the President of the NBTHK and is in his catalog, published Heisei 17. He refers to it as a "naga-katana". Another example, all of them being 1.9 shaku, is illustrated in the Japan Sword monthly, Showa 59,12, p. 24, it being called a nagamaki. The three mentioned are all shinogi-zukuri and with little sori. The terminology is sure elastic.

 Arnold F.