Would One Call A Nagamaki A Special Order Item?

[Daso]

I have the pleasure of having just added an incredibly powerfull Nagamaki to my collection a (Kawachi No Kami Kunisuke (1st Gen) Shinto jp-Saku wazamono Nagamaki. Kan-Ei era early Edo Nagasa 22 1/2". Osuriage with clear mei on nakago. NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon. Hamon Gunome mixed with Suguha (I think). This blade is incredible. It is heavy and seem like almost a sword designed for brutal attacks. Beautiful condition. That being said, was this definitely designed as a pole arm and then converted to wakizashi and is the design of this Nagamaki typical of cut down Naginata? Was this a common design for smiths of the era? I am very excited to have added this piece.

[lonely panet]

I would say its a wakizashi in shinogi zukuri or a unokubi zukuri with a okissaki, its a tricky shape considering.

 

whats the nakago look like

[Stephen]

Looks good brother, Nice.

[Jean]

"Osuriage with clear mei on nakago."

 

Impossible.

 

Picture of the nakago please.

[Fuuten]

"Osuriage with clear mei on nakago."

 

Now it would be possible?

[Daso]

Now it would be possible?

Sorry, my mistake. I meant Suriage. Thanks for correction.

[Daso]

Hamfish, Nakago pic attached.

[Daso]

"Osuriage with clear mei on nakago."

Impossible.

Picture of the nakago please.

[Greg F]

Nice powerful looking blade Darius, would look great mounted. Congrats.

 

Greg

[Ray Singer]

Definitely a converted pole arm rather than a wakizashi made in this shape. Referring to the papers, a naginatanaoshi. On the basis of the blade alone, refer to the shape and length of the nakago along with the positioning of the mekugi-ana.

 

Best regards,

Ray

[Geraint]

Hi Darius,

 

If you have not already found this it might be of interest.  http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/naginata.html

 

Cracking sword, enjoy!

 

All the best.

[Daso]

Nice powerful looking blade Darius, would look great mounted. Congrats.

Greg

I would love to mount this. Laughably, so far I don't have a single one of my blades mounted. This piece must be particularly costly to have Saya and Tsuke made as I doubt anything existing would be a safe fit.

[Greg F]

Not impossible to find mounts that fit but very very difficult I think, especially the saya. Even if you were lucky enough to find a saya that fits theres always the fact that used saya can often be an extra gamble with how clean they are inside and with a nice blade like this its a gamble not worth taking in my opinion. I think having new saya and tsuka is worth looking into in the future. All the best.

 

Greg

[paulb]

Darius

Just a side note, as a basic rule never consider mounting a blade in a saya and tsuka not made for it, Untold damage can be done to a polish by trying to utilise or recycle second hand fittings.

Going back to your sword Kunisuke was an important smith and well regarded both at the time and by later collectors. Regarding being custom made I think most of the work of these better smiths was "made to order" in your case I would think the orinial naginata was ordered and then the blade has been modified subsequestly by a relative of the original owner or subsequent buyer.

 

edit sorry Greg beat me to it but at least we arein agreement!

[nagamaki - Franco]

 That being said, was this definitely designed as a pole arm and then converted to wakizashiand is the design of this Nagamaki typical of cut down Naginata? Was this a common design for smiths of the era? I am very excited to have added this piece. 

 

The blade length is fairly typical for an Edo period naginata, now naoshi. The kissaki has been reshaped with a yokote added in addition to the shortened nakago. Doubtful this was ever mounted as a nagamaki which is what defines a nagamaki, rather it was most likely originally pole mounted as a naginata. Thanks for sharing.

 

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/32/59/93/32599399acba057de68374ef58cefc3b.jpg

 

 

http://japantrip.tripod.com/Japan/osafune2.html

[Ray Singer]

It is not so common to see suriage Shinto swords receive Tokubetsu Hozon. With some exceptional smiths like Shodai Tadayoshi and Nakai Shigekuni there's a much better likelihood that a suriage blade will pass, but Shodai Kunisuke is not at that level. This speaks well of the quality and health of your sword.

 

Best regards,

Ray

[Daso]

Darius

Just a side note, as a basic rule never consider mounting a blade in a saya and tsuka not made for it, Untold damage can be done to a polish by trying to utilise or recycle second hand fittings.

Going back to your sword Kunisuke was an important smith and well regarded both at the time and by later collectors. Regarding being custom made I think most of the work of these better smiths was "made to order" in your case I would think the orinial naginata was ordered and then the blade has been modified subsequestly by a relative of the original owner or subsequent buyer.

 

edit sorry Greg beat me to it but at least we arein agreement!

Paul, I completely agree, my fittings obsession is tempered by the knowledge I've gained from everyone here. I would not even consider trying to shoehorn and destroy a blade in a Saya not made for it ???? Shirasaya it shall remain. One day I'll come across something with fittings. I am most attracted to the blade itself anyway. Thanks again as always. Darius

[Daso]

It is not so common to see suriage Shinto swords receive Tokubetsu Hozon. With some exceptional smiths like Shodai Tadayoshi and Nakai Shigekuni there's a much better likelihood that a suriage blade will pass, but Shodai Kunisuke is not at that level. This speaks well of the quality and health of your sword.

 

Best regards,

Ray

Ray, it's interesting to read in Markus seskos swordsmith index about the The 1st Gen Kunisuke. His work aparently ranged from the best of the time to average, but inconsistent. I'm hoping the Tokubetsu Hozon meant it was some of his best work ???? The piece itself is truly (I hate to use the word) a beast of a blade and beautiful.

[Daso]

The blade length is fairly typical for an Edo period naginata, now naoshi. The kissaki has been reshaped with a yokote added in addition to the shortened nakago. Doubtful this was ever mounted as a nagamaki which is what defines a nagamaki, rather it was most likely originally pole mounted as a naginata. Thanks for sharing.

 

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/32/59/93/32599399acba057de68374ef58cefc3b.jpg

 

 

http://japantrip.tripod.com/Japan/osafune2.html

Nagamaki, would a blade so heavily modified be able to receive tokubetsu Hozn? Was it definitely changed so heavily from the original shape of a Naginata or is that a possibility but not a definite. I'm surprised you could retail the Hamon with a turnback having cut down and reshaped a true Naginata ? I am obviously asking as I don't know. It's my first of its type. Thanks, Dariua

[Daso]

Nagamaki, there is also a Bohi groove which runs along the entire length of blade to the yokote? It seems like quite a stretch of work to get your example into the shape of mine. Just wondering.

[Jean]

Darius,

 

I like it a lot. It seems that only the nakago has been shortened. The blade is not machi okuri as the naginata hi is above the habaki. The blade must not have a lot of sori as, from your pictures, there is a visible kaeri which seems to indicate that it has not even been shaved. In this condition, I am not surprised it got TH.

[Daso]

Darius,

 

I like it a lot. It seems that only the nakago has been shortened. The blade is not machi okuri as the naginata hi is above the habaki. The blade must not have a lot of sori as, from your pictures, there is a visible kaeri which seems to indicate that it has not even been shaved. In this condition, I am not surprised it got TH.

Jean, thank you for confirming what I thought I saw when looking at the blade compared to the Naginata that Nagamaki compared it to. There is little to no sori and there is visible Kaeri (to my inexperienced eye). I would be surprised if it had been so heavily modified while retaining these features. I have never handles a Naginata so I have no other reference point but do Naginata maintain an ihori mune throughout as well. Thank you all for comments. Fuel for fire as I learn. I'm generally excited about this blade, something about it.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Nagamaki, would a blade so heavily modified be able to receive tokubetsu Hozn? Was it definitely changed so heavily from the original shape of a Naginata or is that a possibility but not a definite. I'm surprised you could retail the Hamon with a turnback having cut down and reshaped a true Naginata ? I am obviously asking as I don't know. It's my first of its type. Thanks, Dariua

 

According to NBTHK shinsa standards (below) I don't see a reason why not TokuHo. It was changed. There was enough boshi to retain some turnback in this example which is not always the case with modified naginata.

 

 

Tokubetsu Hozon Token

1)  Blades with Tokubetsu Kicho, Koshu Tokubetsu Kicho or Hozon papers with good workmanship and state of preservation can receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper, except for the following:

a. Either zaimei or mumei blades may not receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper if they are significantly tired, have kizu or repair which impairs beauty of the blade.

b. Re-tempered blades may not receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper unless they were made by famous smiths and their values are extremely high as a reference.

c. Edo period works by less famous smiths with mid or lower grade workmanship may not receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper.

d. Muromachi and Edo period mumei blades may not receive a Tokubetsu Hozon paper, as a rule. However, if a blade shows good workmanship, attributable to a famous smith, having ubu-nakago, and in good preservation, it may receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper.

e. Suriage cut-mei Edo blades may not receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper.

f. Blades with hagiri may not receive Tokubetsu Hozon paper.

* Among blades that received a Hozon paper in item 5 above, that may be considered the maker's best quality, these may receive a Tokubetsu Hozon paper.

http://www.nihontocraft.com/Nihonto_Shinsa_Standards.html

 

 

 

Nagamaki, there is also a Bohi groove which runs along the entire length of blade to the yokote? It seems like quite a stretch of work to get your example into the shape of mine. Just wondering.

 

Wonder if the bohi was added later after modification? Could you post a full length image of that side?

[Daso]

According to NBTHK shinsa standards (below) I don't see a reason why not TokuHo. It was changed. There was enough boshi to retain some turnback in this example which is not always the case with modified naginata.

 

 

 

 

Wonder if the bohi was added later after modification? Could you post a full length image of that side?

 

Nagamaki, Here are some more professional photos and an oshigatana of it. Let me know what your observations are.  Regards, Darius

[Ray Singer]

Offhand I do not recall seeing another naginata which had that shape, of a traditional naginata on one side and shinogi zukuri on the reverse.

 

Best regards,

Ray

[Daso]

Offhand I do not recall seeing another naginata which had that shape, of a traditional naginata on one side and shinogi zukuri on the reverse.

 

Best regards,

Ray

Ray, thanks. Although I am inexperienced, based on comments and my eye, I don't believe that this blade has been cut down from a Naginata and was designed as it is aside from the cut down nakago. Pole arm I understand, yes but designed as is if anything.

[nagamaki - Franco]

 I don't believe that this blade has been cut down from a Naginata and was designed as it is aside from the cut down nakago. 

 

Referring to the papers, a naginatanaoshi.

Best regards,

Ray

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. Mark Twain

[Daso]

I'm not saying it wasn't a naginata, of course it says it was, I just believe it was likely designed in its current shape and not modified. You have to see the blade in hand to understand this.

[Daso]

any thoughts based on the additional photos?

[nagamaki - Franco]

I'm not saying it wasn't a naginata, of course it says it was, I just believe it was likely designed in its current shape and not modified. You have to see the blade in hand to understand this.

 

 

If that is what you want to believe, then by all means don't let anyone tell you different.

 

 

any thoughts based on the additional photos?

 

Yes.