Nthk / Nbthk Origami: Real, Or False?

[Wouter]

Hi all,

 

There has been written a lot already about this topic.

But, having the specialists here at hand and always happy to learn more, I decided to post a new topic, hoping not to inconvenience you too much.

 

The NBTHK origami looks legit to me, but is on green paper, hence old.

Not so sure about the NTHK origami. it seems not to be conform with examples I found online.

 

Both tsuba feel great in hand.

 

Looking forward to your feedback,

 

Best regards

 

Wouter

[Wouter]

Additional pics:

 

Wouter

[DirkO]

Hi Wouter, 

The NBTHK Tokubetsu Kicho is indeed an older paper but especially for kodogu, still quite regularly encountered.
The other paper is NTK and not NTHK

Please see http://www.shibuiswords.com/papers1.htm for more details about the NTK papers.

[Heringsdorf]

I'm hearing mainly negative opinions about the NTHK -NPO coming from Japan.

Whereas in the USA it seems that the nthk has a better reputation.

I wonder why that is the case?

[Brian]

I think that was an unfair comment. They have 1000 times more knowledge than me, and unless that can be proven, I would take that as an opinion not necessarily shared among all dealers there. We all know that the NBTHK origami is the de-facto, but I think there still has to be respect for the other organizations.

[Stephen]

Tsuruta san should be worried about his reputation!

[Heringsdorf]

I did notice though that the nthk has quite a lot of mistakes in their origami lately.

I personally just received yesterday my corrected paper for a set of Menuki which are signed and from the late Edo period.

The first nthk paper stated though them being mumei and from the muromachi period. Now they corrected it though.

[Heringsdorf]

Tsuruta san should be worried about his reputation!

What do you mean with his reputation?

I haven't heard much negative about him.

[Wouter]

Thank you all for your very valid feedback.

Am I right in concluding that the question here is not wether the papers are real, but what value we attribute to certain papers / organisations?

As Brian so eloquently put: NBTHK is the de-facto, but the other organizations owe our respect.

 

Doesn't it all come back to the same questions: is it real, if so: from whom and when?

 

Isn't this what this whole forum is about? And seeing the growing number of posts and members, it is clear that knowing the answers is a steep, but very satisfying path to wander.

 

Maybe, but, what counts for me, rather than (re-)submitting for NBTHK, I adore and admire these tsuba. I cherish them, will guard them and pass them on when the time comes.

 

Wouter

[paulb]

A wise man once said there is only one opinion that counts and thats the owners

Wouter you said it all, you adore them and intend to keep them so what anyone esle thinks isn't relevent.

We seem to go round in circles debating which papers are best whether some are accurate not so etc. As Brian says all of these bodies know a lot more than I do or ever will so I take their opnion seriously. Having said that it is an opinion and yes sometimes they get it wrong.

[Guido]

In all fairness, Mr. Tsuruta's comment (which shouldn't have been posted here in the first place, being made in a private e-mail conversation) is the opinion of most dealers and many collectors in Japan. If that opinion of the NTHK-NPO is deservedly low or not is an entirely different topic. Fact is that one very seldomly sees NTHK (both groups) papers accompanying a sword for sale by a dealer in Japan.

[Wouter]

In all fairness, Mr. Tsuruta's comment (which shouldn't have been posted here in the first place, being made in a private e-mail conversation) is the opinion of most dealers and many collectors in Japan. If that opinion of the NTHK-NPO is deservedly low or not is an entirely different topic. Fact is that one very seldomly sees NTHK (both groups) papers accompanying a sword for sale by a dealer in Japan.

Thank you for your feedback, Guido.

Would that then also count for tosogu, I wonder?

 

Cheers,

Wouter

[Guido]

Would that then also count for tosogu, I wonder?

 

I've seen those papers even less. In fact, I don't remeber when I saw one the last time in Japan.

 

Again, I'm just reporting, I don't have any horse in this race. People who deal in swords and fittings for a living stick with the NBTHK.

[Jean]

As a side note, if I remember well, one of the leader of the NTHK NPO shinsa team has won several times kantei competitions in Japan. Nevertheless, what says Guido is true.

[Grey Doffin]

I think what is happening with this thread is that we are confusing accuracy or lack thereof of a paper with whether or not a particular paper adds value to a sword when sold by a dealer in Japan.  No doubt a paper form the NBTHK (especially the newer Hozon, Tokuho, ..., as opposed to the older Kichi, Tokubetsu Kicho, etc) adds more value than does a paper from any of the 3 incarnations of the NTHK, but the NBTHK, like any other organization, can make mistakes (witness the current thread elsewhere on NMB about the oil tempered Showato recently papered by the NBTHK).  Sales in the west are different from sales in Japan and I personally value any of the group's opinions.

Grey

[Henry Wilson]

If my memory serves me well, the since deleted message from Mr Tsuruta included something like if NTHK NPO papers come with an item, many collectors and dealers in Japan treat the item as being fake. Seems like a pretty lame thing to write down and send to someone. It makes me wonder what kind of people we deal with.