Question on appreciation of Nihonto

[DanielLee]

Being a novice collector, I have found it difficult to judge the quality of a sword just by looking at the blade itself. Many times I find that my opinion is influenced by the ranking of swordsmith or the level of papers which it has. Unfortunately the access to swords where I reside is limited, in fact, the only swords I have ever examined are the ones which I own. There's a few things that i know to look out for, fine tight hada, bright hamon and hataraki, but beyond a certain level, I find it hard to distinguish between the good swords and the very best.

 

What qualities do the swords of highly ranked swordsmiths have which others don't? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Grey Doffin]

Daniel,

It would be great if were possible to answer your question; I could have read a few pages of text 20 years ago and saved myself the effort of getting to the limited level of understanding I'm currently occupying. I don't think there is an answer to your question, a short cut to understanding. You have to see great swords to know what makes them great. You also have to spend a lot of time in reading/studying.

Find collections and beg your way into them; there must be a few in Singapore or nearby. Art and historical museums often have swords hidden away in their basements; A call to the right person can get you in to see them. Splurge on a trip to Japan and see everything you can. Buy books and study. If you're serious about Nihonto, this is the only way I know to make sense of it.

Someone will now write in with a couples paragraphs of wisdom and prove me a bone brain. Any case, this is my take on the subject.

Grey

[Pete Klein]

Grey -- you are spot on. It's like listening to a recording of a symphony and then going to a concert hall to listen to it in person. No matter how good the sound system there is no comparrison. If you wish to study swords you have to hold them close. Same for fittings. Same for art. etc.

When you have then the pictures will begin to make sense. One thing I can tell you is that the difference between the common and the masterpiece is in fine details such as the colour of the metal, the finess of the jihada, fine hataraki in the hamon. This is why you need to see these things in person. I have read so many times accounts of persons who are advanced collectors decrying they had to look at a sword with glass inbetween. Even they couldn't see what they needed to without the sword being in hand, being able to align the metal with the angulation of light necessary to view properly.

All said you need to make the pilgrimage.

[nagamaki - Franco]

 

What qualities do the swords of highly ranked swordsmiths have which others don't? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

It's not always a matter of whether some swords do or some don't.

 

The difference is in the refinement of the steel, color of the steel, "wetness" and/or silkiness of the steel, brightness and depth and consistency of the formations, precision and control and density of the activity, artistic composition and shape, something like a Rai Kunimitsu comes to mind. Keep in mind that it's not only seeing great blades, its also seeing great blades in outstanding polish. This is also not to say that on occasion a Chu-jo or Jo saku smith can't make a Jojo saku level sword, or Jojo a Saijo saku piece. It certainly does happen, but not with the same consistency as the better makers.

 

Sorry for piling on here, but there is only one way to become aware of all this, and that's looking at high quality swords enough times with your own eyes to begin recognizing the difference between levels of workmanship

 

(re-edited)

[DanielLee]

Hi guys, thanks for your time in posting! I agree that there's no better way to learning than to study high quality blades in person. I'm planning an extending trip to Japan next year, mainly to catch the Ichimonji exhibition. I've got the catalog with me, but pictures often fail to do a sword justice. Wish I had the chance to view the various other Sano Art Museum exhibtions.

[hybridfiat]

My first real taste of the facination that the Japanese sword can have was when I visited the tower of London and saw the collection that was presented to queen Victoria. It is stunning. I still recall my amazment that every edged weapon, the arrows, spears, daggers, swords, axes, funny shaped stabbing type things Id never seen before all had the most beautifully wrought blades.

Then a trip to the Rotunda Artillery Museum and more blades, such craftsmanship I was determined that one day I would own one. 20 years later and my dream has been realised.

I hope you will be able to see some of the magnificent examples that are out there.

[remzy]

The number one quality that i am looking for in a blade is its practicality (might not be the best word to describe what i mean but i hope you get it)

A Japanese blade that is made entirely to be practical is bound to be aesthetically appealing.

[Bungo]

The number one quality that i am looking for in a blade is its practicality (might not be the best word to describe what i mean but i hope you get it)

A Japanese blade that is made entirely to be practical is bound to be aesthetically appealing.

 

welcome to the Bungo Appreciation Club. :lol:

 

milt

[remzy]

The number one quality that i am looking for in a blade is its practicality (might not be the best word to describe what i mean but i hope you get it)

A Japanese blade that is made entirely to be practical is bound to be aesthetically appealing.

 

welcome to the Bungo Appreciation Club. :lol:

 

milt

 

Where is my membership card?

[doug e lewis]

The number one quality that i am looking for in a blade is its practicality (might not be the best word to describe what i mean but i hope you get it)

A Japanese blade that is made entirely to be practical is bound to be aesthetically appealing.

 

welcome to the Bungo Appreciation Club. :lol:

 

 

yeqah, want to join Bungo Club!! only i wonder ...any club that would have me as a member must have very low standards.

 

i remember being taught by a friend about how to distingish between the sax playing of The Pres and Dexter Gordon. i finally got it. but did it increase my appreciation of any of their music? NO. i still like it just as well .. though now ..if iwant... i can think about certain nuances of the sax playing ---if i want!

 

so it is with me and my amature appreciation of nihonto

 

the more i learn about it ---- the steel, the flaws, the nie vs nioi, etc the curve of th blade,, yadda yadda

 

the more i can ----if i like --- to appreciate the nuances of a sword.

 

but bottom lineis --- Do i like it? does it please me to hold it? does it feel like something a could use to cut down a man (that is what they are for)

 

if it passes those tests then i havce incentive to go further.

 

just my 2 cents --- (daniel --check out the archived comments. there is one called "does size matter" with darcy and other senior members of some knowledge, and me of little knowledge, but lots of opinions, commenting. it may answer some of your questions.

 

 

now back to this newly formed Bungo Apprecition Club, milt.. lets get on this thing.

 

doug e lewis

[hybridfiat]

What is Bungo? Why does your appreciation of Bungo make you a cheapskate?

[Guest reinhard]

"practicality"

 

Almost every sharpened piece of steel (even a screwdriver) is suitable for terminating a human life, for man is quite a fragile organism. Imagine you're a skilled craftsman and have achieved all your goals as such. What will be your next step? You will try to add beauty to it, if you can afford it. As a swordmith you will try to make your steel even clearer, the hamon even brighter, adding patterns to it. You will try to go beyond the limits of traditional craftsmanship without neglecting functionality a second. The very best of swordsmiths reached this point or at least came near to it. It is about aesthetics beyond limitations of technical skills. I like the comparison with music. The very best smiths were like musicians who didn't have to struggle with technics but concentrated fully on their interpretation.

 

Studying masterpieces is the only way to understand this.

 

reinhard

[Bungo]

so the Bungo smiths are like the lounge lizards in Vegas ??

 

:lol:

 

milt

[remzy]

In my opinion, functionality (thats the word i was looking for) is what the Japanese smiths were aiming for, i might be wrong, but i hope there is some truth in that.

 

What i meant to say is:

a blade that is made solely to withstand the tests it has to go thru in the course of its life will always be aesthetically appealing to me.

 

a blade that is made solely to show off the skills of the smiths does not necesseraly have all of the required qualities to withstand the tests it has to go thru in the course of its life.

 

I know that you might want to answer that "no true Japanese sword is made entirely for show" but it was only an exemple to clarify how i see this.

I guess i am not a big fan of flashy hamon and hada, i rather have an honest, true blade that shows its strenght than a over-elaborated blade that hide its weakness.

 

Remy

[doug e lewis]

bungo smiths would be like lounge acts in Las VEgas, not lounge lizards.

 

acts like Louie Prima come to mind. or Blue Man Group

no Wayne Newton or Fat Elvis (slim Elvis of the come back years is ok)

 

what is the problem people have with Bungo?

 

does every katana have to be Rai Ichimongi? Masamune? Gassan?

 

my lone ichi kizu katana was made (according to my sayashi and sword mentor mike virgadomo) in ca.1560, in Uda style, it is ubu, battle dammaged (maybe) the ha is chipped, arrested rust spots. bueatiful copper habki and is mumei! a bundle sword. a sword for ashigaru.

 

like my original NMB nick name --ashigaru 1 -- a sword for cannon fodder, the first over the top in WW I

 

some body thought well enough of it to keep it in ok condition and alive for 500 years, though. now i have care of it and must eventually pass it on to the next person.

 

jeez! i really got into a rant.... must go drink some Wild Turkey 101 and calm down

 

doug e lewis

[Bungo]

have a katana originally with over 23 chips ( lost count after that ) ..........have it polished, no open grain, no hagiri.

 

Shinsa to Bungo den, now that's a real man sword. :lol:

 

milt

[Guest reinhard]

Hi Rémy,

 

I agree with you to some extent, but if we are to continue this subject, we have to be more precise. I'll start with the following distinctions:

Until early 17th century the "test" of a sword was warfare. Sword against armour. From late Heian-period to early Muromachi-period most swords had to suit this purpose on the highest possible level. No matter if the owner preferred "flashy" Choji-Hamon or restraint Sugu-Ha. Though aesthetics were appreciated at these times already, funcionality was the ultimate criterium.

Things changed during Muromachi-period, when vast armies had to be equipped. Mass-production reduced the amount of swords made by the highest standards to those who could afford them. Most smiths in Bizen Osafune, Mino Seki, Higo Dotanuki or Bungo Takada produced weapons only and tried to save costs. These "Kazuuchi-mono" were usually made without any personal ambition of the smith and the precious kawagane-steel was reduced to a minimum. At least they were held to be practical for unimportant Ashi-garu and the like.

Things however changed completely, when the samurai became obsolete as warrior. Being a clerk, firefighter or whatever, his sword was not of importance anymore. During peaceful Edo-time Nihon-To suffered a decline during 18th century (a few exceptions excluded) and revived again during 19th century, due to Suishinshi Masahide's struggle to give the sword its lost qualities back.

 

Next distinction will be: "Whats "flashy" and what does it mean?"

 

reinhard

[remzy]

Next distinction will be: "Whats "flashy" and what does it mean?"

 

By flashy hamons, i was more refering to the newly developed methods that some polishers use to enhance hamons, i happen to be unclear at times, forgive that.

[Bungo]

okie dokie, this is Holiday season of peace, happy X/mas, Quanzaa and all , and the following observation is NOT mean to upset anyone.

 

With all that disclaimer taken care of, here's my take on Nihonto with a little automobile ( aka car ) anology.................

 

everyone knows a Lamborghini is a great car, but how many of us can afford actually getting behind the steering wheel of one of those babies ? Doubtless there are some that can afford it but the number is few ( could be wrong there........ ).

So most of us drive our little reliable Honda, Ford and some actually graduated to a BMW ( used, :D ), and the mass markiting of the automobile industries keep a lot of union workers happy and put food on the table.

So................ if all of us insist on only the Lamborghini and anything less is not worth putting the seat belt across. What do you all think will happen to the auto industries and the union workers ?

 

Switch fancy car to Juyo level swords and the honda's to Bungo, Echizen Seki.....; and you get the picture ?

 

milt

[remzy]

Milt, i can only bow down to your negociator skills, merry christmas!

[Guest reinhard]

Hi Rémy,

 

I hope you don't mind, if we exclude polishing methods for a moment. This would be an interesting topic for a new thread; but I was intending to stick to Daniel Lee's original question: What separates the masterpieces from the rest? This is the ultimate question and it separates the militaria-collectors from the lovers of Bijutsu-Token.

 

I hope this thread will hold for a while

 

reinhard

[Bungo]

" separates the militaria-collectors from the lovers of Bijutsu-Token "

 

Reinhard, don't lump all Nihonto students that cannot afford Juyo level swords as Militaria collectors, we all love Juyo level swords but simply cannot afford to own one ( unless we struck gold in some flea markets ).

 

Just because we don't own any juyo level swords doesn't make us any lesser students. Yes, we all heard the agrument about better own one good one than 20 lesser ones. For most people, to save all that $ and all............. we'll be over 60 before we get to actually hold a juyo sword and call it our own. In the mean time, I feel there's nothing wrong about owning a few lesser swords just to keep the passion going..............

 

It's sort of like being young and single and read all those trashy ( aka porno ) novels ( fanny Hill to start, then graduate to lady chatterly's lover ), you can imagine all you want, but it can never beat actually having a girl in your arms. :lol:

 

milt

[remzy]

I dont mean to argue there but, would a geniune scuffed, scratched and rusty Masamune blade still be masterpiece?

[Bungo]

here's a food for thought for the holiday season.

I maintain that an elitist attitude automatically disqualify one from truely grasping the concept of wabi/sabi.

What say you all ?

 

 

milt

[Brian]

Just to throw a (polite) spanner in the works here...

Not everyone who owns only mediocre swords doesn't lust after a Juyo blade, and studies the top level items to further his knowledge and enjoyment. You can be an art expert and study the very best works out there without owning one. The point is you don't stop learning and studying the best items. You can enjoy your own swords for what they are, but as long as you have the passion to study and conserve, to me you are still a true collector.

But the key is to know, love and respect the items regarded as the pinnacle of the art.

 

Also..not everyone who has the means and knowledge to collect the top items is elitist

Knowing what is required and having the ability to go after them isn't elitist..it is sensible. This doesn't mean there aren't many elitists in any art field, but everyone hopefully collects to the best of their abilities, and it is your passion and desire to study and further your collection and knowledge that makes you a true collector.

 

This has to be fun, or there isn't much point to doing it. See the best you can..purchase if you can, and enjoy the trip at the same time.

Even the "accumulators" have their place in the grand scheme of things..just as long as they constantly strive to improve their collections and never settle on pertetual mediocrity in their own minds

 

Brian

[Guest reinhard]

Thanks Brian,

 

This is the exact answer I was about to give. Studying and loving a subject does not necessarily mean to own it. Paintings can be used for illustrating this. Many of the best are displayed in museums and you can learn a lot from them. Though most of us will never own a Caravaggio or a Rembrandt, you can learn a lot from them. The view of painting will change over the years and if one has the sense, they will keep you from hanging pathetic trash on your walls. Maybe one day you will buy a painting you can afford, according to your income; after a while maybe the next. It might not be Vermeer's "girl with a golden earring", but a genuine work of a nameless Dutch master of the 17th century with a subject you particularly like. At least you will know what you're doing then.

 

It is the same with swords. The only difference is: It's a little trickier to see good blades, than studying good paintings, but it is not impossible. Japan is not off this world and there are many societies and study-groups all over the world.

 

reinhard

[Bungo]

thanks, Brian , for pulling us( mostly me ) back from the abyss of being dis-agreeable in dis-agreeing ( making up words here, or my usual atrocious spelling ).....

 

back to what make a masterpiece ( sword ), is it the consistency of the school/maker ?

If a " no name " maker's sword turned out to have all/most of the features we desire in a good sword, is it a masterpiece ? If it is shinsa to Echizen Seki , is it held in same " prestige " as , say, a Rai ? if not, why not ?

It's like the Honda NSX ( I think that's the model's name ), even if it outperform a Farrari, it's still a Honda.......... :? :?

 

milt

[Bugyotsuji]

"It's like the Honda NSX ( I think that's the model's name ), even if it outperform a Ferrari, it's still a Honda.........."

 

There has to be a lot of truth in this.

 

Nissan have come up with the R35 GTR which is in the process of rewriting the track records on circuits around Japan, beating all the Lamborghinis, Ferraris and Porsches in the process. On the Porsche car sites they are saying, "Yes, but it's still only a Nissan."

 

My first really good quality Tanegashima Samurai gun, 1.6 Monme, was from Hino. It was solid, subtly decorated and beautiful to behold. Hino is right next door to Kunitomo, but suffered terribly snobby prejudice throughout history; it is still alive in peoples' minds today. I think they may have often made better guns in order to prove Kunitomo wrong. Kunitomo smiths used to dismiss Hino guns as 'Udon-bari' (the barrels rolled up like udon pastry). The Tokugawas used to place their orders with Kunitomo. Scholars all say there is no truth in the slander, but they continue to quote the old prejudice, so the old perception still sticks and even effects prices somewhat today. If you offer someone a choice of Kunitomo or Hino, in most cases he or she will probably take Kunitomo for name value without even having seen the gun.

[remzy]

Personnaly, i like to look at a blade and see it for what it is. Rating of smiths is .. shall i say, over rated.

 

Edit to add that this is my own opinion, i expect others to respect that, if nothing else.