Bring Back With Provenance And Family Blade

[SteveP85]

Good morning,

 

Allow me to introduce myself. This is my first post, and my first Japanese sword. 

 

I have been a collector of military weapons for a number of years, concentrating on battlefield picked up and surrendered items.

 

This sword appears to be an older family blade, re hung for WW2 military service. It came directly from the veterans family and included was the trophy paperwork from 1946.

 

From basic research I believe the blade to be pre WW2 production, and possibly an old family blade. The grip is a very basic aluminium example, which I presume to be late war expedient fitting?

 

The tsuba is iron, and appears to have a fair bit of age to it. Not what I have usually seen on WW2 NCO swords. Presumably it is original to the blade?

 

I apologise for the very crude images, I will take much nicer ones when the sun comes out.

 

The only information I can tell you about the blade is that it is unsigned and sharpened all the way to the collar. I haven't been able to see clear hamon, and certainly do not know what to look for on a more advanced level. The blade appears to have a lot of sharpening marks, presumably from an oil stone? It hasn't been sharpened recently, and I would presume the last time it was sharpened was during WW2...

 

 

[SteveP85]

Few more photos I had on file

[vajo]

Take a look on the Nakago, terrible. The blade is lost. That sword is built from parts. Nothing with value. 

Sorry. I can't get you better informations.

[lonely panet]

Hi random poster

 

IMHO, I doubt it was evan made in Japan. I wouldnt touch it. its got repro put togeather written all over it.

 

the tsuba is poor evan for a late war piece

 

the tsuka is complete rubbish,

 

the blade and nakago are poor evan for late war

 

maybe the scabbard is real

 

what does anyone else say??

regards H

[Bazza]

I've been holding back.  Is there an exorcist in the House???

 

With deep sympathy.

 

BaZZa.

[Bruce Pennington]

Steve,

 

I normally try to defend odd gunto when there's doubt, but this one is a mess. The handle (tsuka) is very poor immitation. Aluminum doesn't corrode like that. The hole where the tassel loop ring is, is very ugly and poorly made. There is no chrysanthimum flower. Then there are many issues with the rest of the fittings.

 

I can't speak about the blade as much. I agree it had a bad polish. The tang (nakago) isn't that well made and the end has been lopped off. Now, were it a legit war sword, that end might have been lopped off to fit into the handle. NCO gunto (which the handle is NCO style) have another hole at the end of the nakago.

 

If things were better looking on this rig, I was going to propose that it was a Warrant Officer gunto, as discussed in Fuller & Gregory, with a family heirloom blade. But I doubt a warrant officer would have settled for such a poorly fitted arrangement.

[Kai-Gunto]

Fake sword!

[vajo]

The nakago is at welded.

 

This sword is pure waste. I can't belive that this one was in a war. 

[BenVK]

Doesn't look to be a genuine Japanese sword to me either. If it is, it's ruined now.

[Jamie]

 

You're not seeing hamon because there probably isn't one.

This isn't an old family blade.

If you're interested in Japanese swords you might want to read the faqs here and get a few books.

Sorry for the bad news. Japanese swords are a very interesting subject but there is just a lot to know. I hope this doesn't discourage you. Maybe instead it will inspire you to learn more.

Anyway have a great day

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Hi Steve , in Australia the urban myth exists which says that our soldiers in the islands used jeep springs to turn out fake Japanese swords which they then sold to gullible and wealthy GIs as the real thing . Forty years ago when I was beating the bushes and looking at swords bought home by returning veterans I saw a fair number of these jeep spring swords . I concluded that it was not only the Americans who had been conned .

 

Fuller and Gregorys book Swordsmiths of Japan showed a couple of blades that had been made in Java during the war . This lead me to conclude that at least some of these jeep spring swords had been made by the Japanese in the Islands . I felt that maybe they were made for officers in local collaborating units or for recently promoted Japanese officers who couldn't get a sword from home as supplies were not getting through late in the war.

 

I recently came across an October 1945 report on the foundry and engineering works at Sanga Sanga in Borneo . These works were manufacturing river craft of up to 66 tons and had the capacity to repair and maintain heavy oil machinery . The report lists items which had been manufactured there including steel helmets bayonets swords hand grenades mortar bombs and flame throwers. The manufactured items were described as being " in most cases were of inferior quality and production rate was very low "

 

Given that your sword has almost certainly come back from Malaysia with a returning soldier I think it is highly likely that it was made in the islands by the Japanese during the war .

 

Ian Brooks

[vajo]

The nakago is welded. The sword or what ever it was is destroyed.

The best thing is the paper from the army.

I didn't understand what is to discuss. Maybe i didn't understand it, but that sword in that condition had never seen a battlefield.

Correct me please when I'm wrong.

 

Regards

[Stephen]

Chris he understands now, thank you

[SteveP85]

Haha and 

 

Thanks for the replies guys! 

 

As soon as I started looking into it I realised that this sword was a little 'different' from what I was seeing...

 

After years of collecting I don't usually pick up anything without knowing about it, but this was temptingly cheap (and obviously cheap for a reason!!) and something I had never owned before.

 

Thanks again for your input, I have now learned a lot. Fortunately with very little money down the drain....

 

Not to worry - and I really appreciate the responses, I am very glad to learn my lessons with this piece over something I spent a lot more money on. 

 

Regards

 

Steve

[SteveP85]

p.s '' in Australia the urban myth exists which says that our soldiers in the islands used jeep springs to turn out fake Japanese swords which they then sold to gullible and wealthy GIs as the real thing . ''

 

I really like that myth! Thanks again to all - may my next sword be an educated buy   

[lonely panet]

Hi guys,

 

its no myth, got first hand information from a gentleman  who was on the Kokoda and Bull tracks. he was one of the few packhorsemen that would take all there supplys in via donkeys, they also had the blacksmiths with them to shod the animals. this is how the myth began. I have been shown one of there pieces of work, and i can say there very good, but noticeably not Japanese nihonto.

 

 

my family have know each other for 3 generations so its very solid information, his name was Snowy Noble and he had a book written about his life, i will try and dig it up and post the correct tittle.

 

He use to tell me shocking stories of what the war, sadly snowy passed away about 10 years ago.

 

regards H

[BANGBANGSAN]

@Kiipu

Here is another one,come with a leather tassel as well.

 

 

 

[Kiipu]

A couple of us, including @Shamsy, discussed this sword at length over at WRF.  This is a well documented sword via F&G and I think it is more in the line of local Type 95 production.  However, not everyone agrees and instead think it was for officer use.

Short Development History of Type 95 Gunto, Starting at Post #330

[Bruce Pennington]

After re-reading this, the original post included the bring-back authorization paper.  Don't see how there could be an argument about that.  Yes, I know such papers could have been added to the grouping, but we have no real reason for discounting his story of the veteran's family and the paper.

 

With that in mind, I have to change from my original post and agree with Thomas.

[John C]

If the OP information is correct, it seems to have come from Malaya. Could this style have been produced there from broken parts?

John C.

[Kiipu]

Japanese TROPHIES.

 

The bearer of this No. S/14770050 Sgt. BENNET A.A. 421 British Supply Platoon (Lt) RASC is entitled to be in possession of a Japanese Sword issued to him under th provisions of HQ 34 Ind Corps letter No. 190/1/A1 of 24 Oct 45 governing the provisions of Japanese Trophies to those who took part in the re-occupation of MALAYA.

 

Station – SEAC.

Date       Jul 46.

[Kiipu]

RASC Royal Army Service Corps

HQ Headquarters

34 Ind Corps  XXXIV Corps (British India)

SEAC South East Asia Command

[BANGBANGSAN]

21 hours ago, Kiipu said:

A couple of us, including @Shamsy, discussed this sword at length over at WRF.  This is a well documented sword via F&G and I think it is more in the line of local Type 95 production. 

+1

[Bazza]

Am I the first person to do necro-likes without looking at the date???!!!

 

DOH!!!  But the 'likes' were well-deserved nonetheless, I thought.

 

BaZZa.