Origami Appraisals

[Ken-Hawaii]

All things being equal, how would you rank the "usefulness" of these origami, both for authentication & for valuation:

 

NBTHK

NTHK

Hakasui

Hon'ami

Kanzan sayagaki

 

Ken

 

[paulb]

At risk of opening a can of worms. Based on personal experience (and possibly prejudice) together with feedback from more expeienced collectors:

in order of preference and with some notes of caution:

1 NBTHK (current papers and earlier high level i.e. pre 1979 high level papers. There is a belief in some quarters that in the early days of papering the standard for Juyo papers was more strict therefore earlier papers carry greater worth. I am not sure how valid this view is in reality)

2. Earlier NTHK papers, those written before the split in to the two factions

3. Kanzan sayagaki but there are a lot of fake sayagaki around. If it is authentic it is likely to be accurate and add value if it is wrong then it is likely to be a fake.

4. No real expereince and there are many generations and stories. Those few I have seen have been supported by NBTHK later papers and certainly added value to the overall package.

5. Hakasui was incredibly helpful in educating the occupation forces in the subject of swords. As a result he was not popular with the sword dealing fraternity. His reputaion suffered and as a result his papers were reported as unreliable. The one or two I have seen look to be ok but certainly unless supported by addtional papers they would not add a great deal to the commercial value.

As said the above is purely personal opinion and based on examples I have seen and comments heard over the years. I think all of them (provided they are authentic) can add something to both confidence and commercial value it is a matter of personal preference and timing.

[Jean]

Point 1 - around juyo session N° 25, it seems a lot of blades passed that would not pass nowadays. Now Juyo Shinsa is as hard as when it started. If you want to know the weak Juyo Shinsa, look at the number of swords that passed each year.

 

Point 3 - Kanzan Sayagaki, a few of them have been overturned by NBTHK Shinsa. It seems Honma Junji ones are more reliable and Tanobe ones are also very reliable though sometimes he is in disagreement with NBTHK Shinsa.

[nagamaki - Franco]

Usefulness, hmm, any of these on this list can be completely correct, completely incorrect, or somewhere in between, and its usefulness depends on what one ends up learning from using that information.  

[seattle1]

Hello:

 I think most of us would hesitate to go too far along the suggested line, as some of the comments above imply. Further, while I know what "all things being equal" would mean in hypothesis structuring or a thought experiment, I don't know what it means within the question. A sayagaki is not the same as an origami as the later has an oshigata and the former invites some other blade with the same dimensions being conformed to the saya and being pit in it. Which Hon'ami, Koson or the one currently practicing, namely Koshu? Hakusui Inami, Koson and Kanzan are deceased, but another issuer of authentications, though I have only seen sayagaki, was Homma Kunzan who is now also deceased. I would be surprised if anyone would want to comment on Tanzan (Tanobe sensei), or Koshu as they are very much with us.

 Arnold F.

[Jean]

Arnold,

 

My comments are only factual. The dispute between the experts were on o suriage blades, so they are only difference of opinion as kanteisho/sayagaki are only opinion To be absolutely matter of fact, on mumei blades, NBTHK has issued different kanteisho on the same o suriage blade...

[Ken-Hawaii]

Okay, let me rephrase the question a bit. If you were planning to buy a blade with significant value (i.e., expensive), which of the above would make you feel most secure in your decision? I'm assuming, of course, that you've already done your own homework to determine whether the blade was worthy of purchase, & not just depending on origami. So feel free to add Honma & Tanobe, if that makes a difference.

 

Ken

 

[paulb]

Thank you Ken

It is one of those questions that appears straight forward but then makes you think a bit more about your own reasons for the opinions you hold. So without wishing to become too complicated I would suggest the following.

1. As both Arnold and Franco have suggested ( I think) all papers are subjective and there are examples from all sources that differ from others or are just wrong. They are, after all, produced by people.

2. Older papers may be considered less accurate in light of ongoing research which sheds new light on factors not previously known. Therefore older papers may be wrong,not through deception but comparative lack of knowledge.

3. Where there have been problems with accurracy and possible deception it has mainly been in branch locations rather than head office and for lesser papers (which were the only ones done in branches).

So ones confidence has to consider where the paper was raised, the level of paper and when it was written.

Basedon the above and the situation today I would personally have greatest confidence the following:

1. Tanobe Sensei sayagaki

2. NBTHK paper

3. NTHK paper (from appraisal in Japan)

The others are all produced by people who have far greater knowledge than me so must be taken in to account. However for a high ticket item I would think a seller would want the potential benefit of an up to date paper to support their sale and give confidence to the potential buyer. so unless there was a well understood reason as to why this wasnt available I think it would raise a concern (at least to me)

[Jean]

Ken,

 

Is the blade signed or not? O suriage or not?

 

Unsigned blade, according to your post, implies NBTHK Shinsa. Have it confirmed by Tanobe sayagaki.

[Jamie]

 

I think the most important is to study very intensely you're chosen school, smith, etc. and know what you're looking at. I think the longer running schools this might be hardest with but all very good work has its hallmarks. I think relying on papers isn't the best route personally.

[Ken-Hawaii]

I'm trying to keep the question generic, Jean, & don't have a specific blade in mind. Just as we try to not judge a blade solely by its mei, once we've got a potential purchase, how will, or should, the origami influence us? Would having, say, Hon'ami Koson be more important/influential than NBTHK Hozon in a buying decision?

 

Ken

 

[Jean]

Ken - answer is NBTHK shinsa.