Unknown Ww2 Vintage Sword - Help Needed To Id

[marksharky]

I have an interesting WW2 Japanese sword that I have been trying to identify.  The sword is quite unique and well made, but I have never seen one like it..........

 

I have it posted over on my blog with the background story and photos if anyone wants to visit there:
http://sharky-fourbees.blogspot.com/...ring-back.html

Basically, I was given the sword by my godfather, who was a young child at the end of WW2. A returning vet gave him the sword and another kid a "Japanese pistol". He said they "played war" with those things for years. It was a miracle the sword survived! Anyway, he has had it tucked away for all these years and then passed it on to me for my collection.
I have been told that it is possibly a Naval Sword, and possibly a late war, last ditch sword. It certainly doesn't fit the souvenir sword style, in my opinion.  I can definitely vouch for the story about it coming back with a Vet in 1945. The "kid" who it was gifted to went on to become a US Naval Intelligence Officer and then became a CA State University Professor until he retired.

 

No markings (stamped or otherwise), no file or machine marks, "sharp", no temper lines, 26" blade length grip to tip, 36" overall, back edge of blade is ridged, about 1/4" thick at base of blade, well finished and even, magnetic, blade tapers as it enters the wood handle. Wood handle is two sided and attached with two pegs. Not sure if the wrapping is original, but I was told it was.

I am hoping someone here can help me figure this out, or at least head me in a new research direction.

Oh yes, no markings or stampings that I can see, and I am very hesitant to tear apart the handle just to find out. It has family history value and I don't want to mess thinks up just to check.

Thanks for any assistance!

 

[marksharky]

I am wondering if this could possibly be a PETA produced sword from Japanese Occupied Indonesia.   It definitely does not look to be of actual Japanese manufacture, but it definitely came from the WW2 Pacific Theater.  I have noticed that the leather covering the scabbard appears to match several sword scabbards that have been identified as PETA made, although the actual PETA swords seem to look more "Japanese" in their design.

[Brian]

Looks to me like it may be a regular remounted Showato, based on the blade shape. But unfortunately, the only thing that can tell us for sure at this point, is the on thing that is relatively difficult to get to..the tang/nakago. And that is a problem.

[Bazza]

The crude habaki suggests some kind of refit of a Showato, or a sword of non-Japanese manufacture IMHO.  That handle has to come off one way or another and would frankly be of no historical loss...  I have a similar sword here where the handle with good same has been solidly glued on and my only choice is to destroy the handle if I want to see the nakago.  Handles have always been replaceable items.

 

BaZZa.

[SwordGuyJoe]

This is an interesting decision that you have! On one hand, you could remove the wrap, pull the handle and see what you REALLY have there. On the other hand, you could leave the wrap and enjoy as you believe it to be.

 

The thing that makes this interesting to me is your decision. What everyone is not saying here is that we've seen many "WWII" swords similar to yours and they were repros. Others mentioned that it could have been a last ditch effort forged in an occupied territory - possible. Or you could have a real "samurai sword"! Either way, the only way to know for sure is to remove that handle. But if you find a reproduction, will you still cherish the sword in the way your blog seems to indicate? I am not questioning the story of the vet that brought it back, so don't think that. Vets were prey to many marketers during and post war and eager to believe a story about a fantastic war time sword taken off a high ranking general, etc.

 

We have seen a few questionable swords over that last few weeks that have been deemed "occupation swords". I'm thinking we're all getting a little attribution happy with that as I don't really agree, but I've been wrong about this before. So who really knows. Either way, the truth waits for you under the wrap that, at the very least isn't up to military specs and possibly not even period and done by a well intentioned American in Ohio.

 

So the choice really becomes would you prefer the ignorance is bliss route or pull the handle and see what you really have? Part of me would like it to be the latter, since I'm curious, but I think the larger part would prefer you leave it as is. Not because you're keeping it original - as it likely isn't original as it sits right now. But because you'll still have the unfettered opinion that you have a real Japanese sword. Perhaps a cherished heirloom that you can see your grandkids or great grandkids tell the same story you learned.

 

Either way, I'll be interested in the route you go.

[marksharky]

This is an interesting decision that you have! On one hand, you could remove the wrap, pull the handle and see what you REALLY have there. On the other hand, you could leave the wrap and enjoy as you believe it to be.

 

The thing that makes this interesting to me is your decision. What everyone is not saying here is that we've seen many "WWII" swords similar to yours and they were repros. Others mentioned that it could have been a last ditch effort forged in an occupied territory - possible. Or you could have a real "samurai sword"! Either way, the only way to know for sure is to remove that handle. But if you find a reproduction, will you still cherish the sword in the way your blog seems to indicate? I am not questioning the story of the vet that brought it back, so don't think that. Vets were prey to many marketers during and post war and eager to believe a story about a fantastic war time sword taken off a high ranking general, etc.

 

We have seen a few questionable swords over that last few weeks that have been deemed "occupation swords". I'm thinking we're all getting a little attribution happy with that as I don't really agree, but I've been wrong about this before. So who really knows. Either way, the truth waits for you under the wrap that, at the very least isn't up to military specs and possibly not even period and done by a well intentioned American in Ohio.

 

So the choice really becomes would you prefer the ignorance is bliss route or pull the handle and see what you really have? Part of me would like it to be the latter, since I'm curious, but I think the larger part would prefer you leave it as is. Not because you're keeping it original - as it likely isn't original as it sits right now. But because you'll still have the unfettered opinion that you have a real Japanese sword. Perhaps a cherished heirloom that you can see your grandkids or great grandkids tell the same story you learned.

 

Either way, I'll be interested in the route you go.

 

I must say that this is one of the most thoughtful, and philosophical observations that I have seen in years, and reflects many of my own observations and beliefs when it comes to collecting. 

I have come to realize that there are basically two types of collectors.  First, there are the collectors who are centered on the "item", it's value, rarity, variation, etc.  Second, there are the historical collectors. The historical collectors are interested in the "story" or the history that is associated with the particular piece.  I fall into the "Historical Collector" category.

For me, a particular item has the greatest value when it has the documented "patina" of a real story that is attached to it.  That historical value far outweighs any mere monetary value that the item might have on its own. 

For many collectors, the hobby is like collecting coins or stamps.  They want to have one of each variation, maker, style, mint, etc.  It is most important to know the specifics, the facts, and the category of an item.  The actual history of that item, or "story patina", is secondary, or sometimes not important at all.

As a historical collector, I look first at the item and the "story it is telling me", what part it played in a historical period or event, and lastly its specifics, the category it fits into, and finally, its actual monetary value.  The "story" is the greatest value to me. 

We have all grown up hearing legends, epics, war stories, adventure stories, stories filled with drama, danger, heroes and villains.............. to hold something real, an actual, physical item, that was there and played a part in one of those stories, is an amazing and wonderful thing to experience.  No one really wants to hear "the facts and nothing but the facts" when it comes to war stories.  What thrills us and keeps us interested, is the drama, the mystery, and the adventure in the story.  In other words, all the things that are not fact.  If we reduced all of history to just the facts, it would be one of the dullest subjects ever.  Which brings me back around to this sword of mine............

The question posed was, "So the choice really becomes would you prefer the ignorance is bliss route or pull the handle and see what you really have?".  I guess for me, "knowing the facts" about the sword would not change its story or value for me one bit.  It would be nice to know, and as a historian I am very curious, but the "little kid in me" doesn't really care.  The "story patina" of that sword will stay the same, whether I know the original origin of the sword or not.  What I do know is that this is a real sword, that came home with a real GI Vet, who came home from a terrible war, and it was given to a little boy.  To that little boy, that sword was as magical as King Arthur's Excalibur.  The sword inspired childhood adventures, imagination, and most certainly left impressions on a child who would grow to a man.  That part of the swords story is priceless, and every bit as important as its "war story", maybe even more important.  Whether the sword was born on the battlefield, or in a tourist market, the value is the same.  It is the story that it is telling now that is the true value.  I choose story over dollars every time!

Will I pull the handle and satisfy my curiosity?  I will if I can do it with negligible impact on the grip. 

I would love to know more about this swords past so I can add that chapter to the story I know now.  Will I be disappointed if I find out it is not "a real samurai sword"? Absolutely not!  Will it change my view of the sword if I discover that it "has great authentic value"?  Absolutely not! 

This sword is a time traveler from a little boy's childhood and that is the story that I will tell, no matter what.

 

Stay tuned!

[SwordGuyJoe]

Nice response!  I'll eagerly watch this thread for more.