Another Newbie Question

[zburkett]

Several years ago I was at a county auction and picked up a sword for my military collection.  On checking it out I found it is one of the WW II hand made and signed swords.  While it was not particularly valuable it was a great addition to my collection.  Then a good friend gave me a long term loan of one of the swords his father brought home from Japan.  Recently I got a sword signed Sukesada Fujiwara which peaked my interest again.  On following this forum there seems to be different schools of collecting.  The two most prominent seem to be the art collectors and the history buffs.  This brings up the question, when do you restore a sword and when do you leave it as found?  My new (old) blade has a few chips and the beginning of rust spots.  The handle is broken off just above the tang.  Where do I go from here?

[paulb]

Zack

there are as many answers to your question as there are collectors. But to make a start can you post some images of the sword you mention. then you can obtain opinions from all parts of the collecting family (all are valid BTW)

[nagamaki - Franco]

 This brings up the question, when do you restore a sword and when do you leave it as found?  My new (old) blade has a few chips and the beginning of rust spots.  The handle is broken off just above the tang.  Where do I go from here?

 

Hello,

 

A place to begin; http://nihontocraft.com/2015_NBTHK_Nionto_Tosogu_Shinsa_Standards.html

 

Before taking on the challenges presented of restoration a collector should first understand in an objective manner the proper way in which to begin evaluating their sword. In hindsight (25 years of study), a sword would have to be of Tokubetsu Hozon level before I would consider putting it through the works of polish, habaki, shirasaya, and origami. This is not to say a Hozon sword is not worthy of a proper restoration at all, rather, it is saying understand both the objective and subjective factors before deciding. 

[Ken-Hawaii]

Both Paul & Franco are right, Zack - Paul's asking for photos to make a subjective call, while Franco is stating that there is a minimum quality level that, below which, he wouldn't do anything to the blade. As much as you would like to preserve a sword, unless you're independently wealthy, there is a question as to whether you can recover your purchase price plus the cost of restoration. I'm one of those collectors who actually swings swords in martial arts, so I first look at functionality; in other words, if I had to USE it as a weapon, would it work? A couple of years ago, I caught a couple of idiots ripping off packages from my mailbox, & ran outside with the blade I was oiling - I've never seen two guys so happy to see the police arrive! So my blade worked fine in that case. Other than that, I consider myself to be the caretaker of my blades. But since I now know enough not to buy "ugly" swords, I'm much more interested in restoring the ones that I do buy. This is something that you'll develop over time, & only you can make that call.

 

I strongly suggest that you invest in a couple of books from Amazon so that you can start understanding what you already have, Zack. As you obviously don't know that the tang is the nakago, or that the handle is the tsuka, you have a fairly steep learning curve ahead of you. Once you've posted photos, we can provide advice, but you might not understand it if you don't know any of the basic concepts. You can search NMB for lists of books for newcomers, as quite a bit has already been written. Have fun!

 

Ken

 

[zburkett]

Thanks everyone.  First, I know that the swords I own at present do not have a high monetary value.  The first sword I am told is a hand made military sword from early WW II.  It is in very good shape and all the standard WW II dressings are in place.  My second sword is an unsigned sword in excellent shape but the koiguchi and fuchi or sageo are missing from the saya and some of the lacquer is flaking off.  My most recent sword has four chips, the deepest I/16" deep and some discoloration.  The mei is Yokoyama Kouzuke Daijo Fujiwara Sukesada and on the reverse Bi-shu Osa-fune ju-nin.  I understand that is the signature of a master in the early 1700s but was forged well into the Edo period.  It has WW II military dressing through the fuchi but the tsuka is broken off at the end of the nakago.  There is no ito.  At some point I will replace the tsuka.  My original question when I came onto this forum had to do with cleaning up the blade.  Since then I have become confused about the different groups of collectors.  Some seem to treat the swords strictly as art and disparage the history collectors.  There seems to be little middle ground, or frankly respect between the two groups.  In my case I find them beautiful and am fascinated by their history.  My first two swords are service men bring backs and I suspect the most recent one is also.  I would like to know if the saya was broken in battle or by some kid playing with daddy's war trophy.  I would like to know if it is really a master made blade or an old forgery.  As for resale, that is my children's problem after I'm dead.  But for now I am discovering that this fascination can get very expensive very fast so I would like to understand the ins and outs.

[SteveM]

Don't worry about the different groups of nihontō admirers. I think the only real disdain any of us have, is reserved for fake swords. This means crap swords churned out of some garage somewhere, masquerading as either traditionally-forged swords or authentic Japanese military swords (which, as you know, sometimes turn out to be repurposed antiques themselves). I guess there is also some disdain for reproductions, as well.  

 

And the real distinction is not between the art buffs and the history buffs, because I think these are overlapping circles on a Venn Diagram. Rather, the distinction tends to be between the WW2 antique buffs (any blades from Imperial Japan), and those more interested in traditionally-forged and typically (but not always) Edo-era and earlier. Fortunately on this site the two groups exist in harmony, mostly, and with respect for each other. At least, I hope I can say this is the case. I haven't seen any mud-slinging lately. Also, I wouldn't hesitate to suggest that there is a lot of overlap between these two groups as well. I'm more of a traditional guy myself, but I find the world of WW2 swords to be deep and fascinating and with all sorts of interesting diversions. 

 

There is a bit of impatience with people who buy something that catches their eye on ebay, and then come here looking for validation. But even these guys get treated pretty fairly here. 

 

Regarding your swords, always hard to tell without very good close-ups. In any event, the one with the Yokoyama Kozuke Daijō inscription looks to be an authentic, traditionally-made blade, but I am not skilled enough to tell you if it is a fake signature on a real blade, or a good (authentic) signature on a real blade. Check out the thread below for some more detail.

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/4063-yokoyama-kzuke-daijo-fujiwara-sukesada/ 

[zburkett]

^{Thanks SteveM,  Because of what you said about "fakes" I have a question.  I just ordered a Koiguchi for the red saya just to stabilize it.  Some of the lacquer is flaking off.  For the price I paid on ebay I know it is a reproduction (fake).  Should I just wrap the collar with something to stabilize it and throw the fake away when it gets here?  Z}

[zburkett]

BTW Ken, I'm not wealthy, but very lucky.  It would be embarrassing to say how little I have invested in my sword collection.  I fear that may be about to change. I do agree with you, I do not own the swords, I have been granted the privilege of being the stewards of them.  As such I would like to do it right.  In my collection there are half a dozen swords from the American Civil War.  There is only one that when you hold it, you feel it.  With all of my Japanese swords, when you hold them you feel them.  I hope you understand.

[SteveM]

Hello Zack - I think the koiguchi question is purely subjective, so go with whatever works for you. If you are just looking for a semi-temporary stabilizer, and the one you ordered fits the bill and looks OK to you, then its fine. 

 

If at some point you want to go down a path of more authentic restoration, you can do that. For now, don't sweat it. 

[Ken-Hawaii]

I would love to know a Nihontō collector who was wealthy, Zack! But I think the nature of our collecting prevents that from happening! Seriously, it's not the money that we spend, as much as it is the fact that we have chosen to become caretakers & stewards. And it's a fine line we tread on deciding whether & how to restore our charges. So the more knowledgeable we are about what we're doing, the better a job we can do.

 

Every time we polish a blade, we're removing metal that can never be replaced. And if we decide to remove a chip in the ha, it may require removal of many inches of hamon to maintain the geometry. If you happen to be lucky enough to acquire original koshirae, where do you draw the line on repairing the koiguchi, as in your case, versus leaving it intact, but damaged? These are all decisions that will echo down through all future caretakers, & all we can hope is that we're doing at least as good a job as those who came before us.

 

Ken