What Is This Kyo Gunto Blade?

[ggil]

I know it's a police dress saber, and I'm guessing the design on the back middle handle is an insignia (but don't know what for). I know what the would be worth having a decent German blade inside (thank you Hamfish), but this isn't that. It's weird, but maybe in a good way... Got this on flea bay for a steal: 18 bids $330. No maker's markings on blade base. Seems to have a suguha hamon that continues along the back edge (finely ground thinner back edge - not a cutting edge, but a thinner mune section with hamon). Of course it could always be a tricky artifact or a weak oil quench or something. The tip of the blade has some damage that looks like, was braised on maybe or gold filled to halt more damage. It isn't horribly done I guess. There are 2 chips that have been repaired (these don't go 1/2 way into hamon. The faceting of the steel is more complex than any European mass made blades, even having a mix of naginata and yari type horimono, with precision angle changes and uniformity that is uniquely Japanese. The thing feels Japanese, and it is sharp like it should be. Everything about this blade seems rare, but when I'm looking at blades I always just glance at these types, because I'm thinking ( my opinion, no offense intended) machine made blade means not quite as functional as a well made nihonto.

It seems to have some small animal skin for the grip (lizard?). A copper guard that is very well done, that is (probably) gold guilded. You can see where a few raised spots show the bright copper underneath (a sharp contrast). the nut (that holds the handle on) that one would usually expect to have some amount of metal showing for the craftsman to use to install the thing (attach his tool to), is barely showing so that there is no way to have ever installed the guard, much less remove it and see what the nakago looks like (if I was crazy enough to try this, or have a pro try). Plus there is the usual mushrooming of post, but it is so nice it looks intentional to my machinist friend. Possibly mumei (again, I don't know if it is even handmade), but even then you could tell how good the craftsmen involved were by inspecting under the handle. If I was a smith asked to make some puny, pain in the ass to deal with, wannabe European sword, I would ensure nobody would be able to see the nakago (verify authentic mei = increase price) by having the guard maker do this. As a protest to the western capitalist ways. "Just try and make money off me yank, I'm mumei, badass and beautiful, and you just ruined my handle dummy.



Motohaba: 18.45mm
Motokasane: 8.20mm
Thinnest point near tip: 4.40mm
Sakikassane 4.80mm (widens at tip)
Nagasa: 26.5"
Threaded post diameter at widest part of steel 6.35mm

So, anybody have some really good eyes for seeing hada, and will be at the SF show? I think Mr. Benson will be there, so I'll show it to him and get his reaction (if he has one ☹️). I'd like to know the providence of this blade, insofar as what can be said about its manufacture, and possibly assumed about its usefulness as more than a typical dress blade of the era, which this appears to be. Also hoping other folks will be inspired and share in my exitement of what may be something special. Any other info you kind people have about this blade and are willing and to share, would be greatly appreciated. Not planning to sell it.
 

[dirk marshall]

sharkskin

[ggil]

Thanks Dirk, that was my original gut call too, but the nodes are so tiny in hand that I was making guesses as to what else it may be. 

[ggil]

I can't believe the lack of interest???  Am I the only one who thinks the blade may be handmade?  if not than I would think this thing would garner a little discussion.  Shows my inexperience, I guess. 

[Dr Fox]

I can't believe the lack of interest???  Am I the only one who thinks the blade may be handmade?  if not than I would think this thing would garner a little discussion.  Shows my inexperience, I guess. 

 

Grant

Be fair to yourself here!

You posted at 6.16am and at 2.28 you expect a wealth of discussion!!

Not only is it a working day, but the board is world wide with different time zones.

Patience is a virtue.

[ggil]

Thanks Doc!  I think you can see that I could stand some of that, what do you call it?  Oh yeah, Patience!

[Stephen]

the small pix with red background blade and guard, is there a stamp or something above the habaki?

[ggil]

No Sir, nothing on the blade but the obvious horimono (and chip/damage repairs).  Those red background pics are the ebay photos.  I guess the guard would be the habaki for this blade, as it has no habaki.

[dirk marshall]

picture 5 is the same picture that Stephen references in that picture it appears to be a smudge unfortunately I did not see the habaki unless that is the leather seppa.  I collect russo mounts and at the San Francisco I saw a similar blade, traditionally made, in russo mounts.

[ggil]

Dirk, yes it has the leather seppa (but not a seppa more of a cushion for the saya is all, as my other police saber has also).  the ebay pics are only 25kB, they are almost useless, but they did serve to help me get this thing!  You know who owned this blade you saw? 

[ggil]

A member has seen one of these blades (or at least very similar) that was traditionally made.  The person says these attract hagire (obviously as they are ridiculously thin).   Maybe I am lucky, because the chips in my blade are quite a ways away from the tip (where it is most thin).  Even if hagire, still would be FREAKING AWSOME to me if the blade was handmade in Japan. 

[Kai-Gunto]

It looks like a normal machine blade with nickel platting.

[ggil]

I like the independent thought, but I provided EXAMPLES of why I think what I do. Would you be so kind as to expound at all? As in, discribing the nature of error in even 1 of my ideas at least. If you have the time, that is.

 

My guess is you have been talking to Hamfish via PM, as he became unresponsive the moment I told him how I felt: id like to get this to a pro to appraise (a polisher or smith). A bit disheartening, anyway. While at first he was seemly exited about ( what part of the ensemble would you guess?) the blade.

 

But then again, unresponsive may actuall be just wise temperance, and now I feel like a jerk, as per my normal existence on the board here.

[Stephen]

Dont talk yourself into believing what you want it to be Grant, Police sabers with loss of chrome can fool one.

[Brian]

How can anyone make a guess that it is handmade from the pics presented? Impossible. When 99% of something are mass produced blades, that is what the prevailing opinion is going to be unless they see something else.
For it to be handmade..forget hada. Look for nie or nioi. Without that, it isn't. If you see nie, then you have something.

To me, you did good even if it is mass produced. Nice sword, great condition, naginata hi....a lot going for it. I wouldn't base all my hopes on it being Nihonto. It's nice as is. Handmade would be a bonus, but highly unlikely.

[ggil]

Thanks Brain for the sensible comment. It will be at the show in case anyone wants to see it. Let me know and I will try and meet up. Going Friday for sure, maybe Sunday but that may push it for the wife.

[Kai-Gunto]

The lack of a habaki says alot.

[ggil]

Yes but what IS THERE (all things mentioned) speaks louder.

[Dr Fox]

Grant

What you need to do now is, walk it around the show and let people see it.

The opinions you will get then will be from in hand exams.

You will also get answers to your questions in real time.

[lonely panet]

I thinks a weapon, not a simple dress sword. there are may fighting machined blades that were used that have no habaki, type 25, type 34, type 8 riding swords ETC.

 the Hi at the end of the kissaki looks hand finished to me, and there is no plating to be seen in any normal places. The width of the blade is a feature that is key to identifying this as a weapon. its odd that there is no Stamping at all, so maybe a rare experimental "combination sword" or maybe a oddball murata-to??

 

Identifying odd/custom swords can be tricky business .

[ggil]

Well I'm sure looking forward to watching some of you folks do this tricky business, at the show.

[lonely panet]

Grant,

most Nihonto purists will not be that interested in this type of sword, as its not a nihonto. military sword enthusiast's will be interested due to that police swords don't normally have this quality of blade

[ggil]

Thank you for the explaination. Very glad to have your help with this blade.

[Dr Fox]

Grant,

most Nihonto purists will not be that interested in this type of sword, as its not a nihonto. military sword enthusiast's will be interested due to that police swords don't normally have this quality of blade

 

Grant

Hamfish has nut shelled what you perceived as a lack of response earlier. This boards main objective is the study of nihonto, hence its title.

Military enthusiasts are also catered for, but does give rise to a divided forum.

Don't think I as a nihonto custodian won't give you my time, its just that I have not entered this area of study, so have no valid opinions to give.

I am not alone here, but I do admire your attempts to research and question.

Don't be discouraged, as even by following these posts, I add to the little I already know.

[Johncstroud]

Keep the faith my friend I hope that the kind people of the forum remember that the main focus is the discussion and identification of non traditionally made Japanese swords .I hope that the nihonto enthusiasts are not biased against militaria

because they is still much knowledge to be gained from them.the best you can hope for is a kind favorable response.

[Bruce Pennington]

I always bring my gunto here. The forum for military blades on this site is dominated by European weapons. This site is where the Japanese enthusiasts hang out. However, I also lurk on the Werhmacht site, Axis allies, Japan: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=59. There the enthusiasts are all about WWII

[ggil]

Thanks everyone. I've spoken with a polisher who is interested in examining the blade, at the show. I'm getting really exited about the show. Like a kid in a candy store!

[ggil]

According to Fuller and Gregory: the decoration on the guard indicates Army Generals's blade, not police as I originally thought. What I was taking to be the 5 sided police insignia is actually a chrysanthemum. The last two pictures show guards from police issue short sabre (these blades have bright nioi), and the supposed army generals kogarasumaru-french fry blade.

 

Looks like weak oil quenching, that left little if any nioi. Of course it still could be polished on hamon for all I know. Hopefully a polisher will know for sure.

[lonely panet]

Hi grant, the original F&G has some small errors, but they just didn't have the knowledge we have now. I would really look at jim dawsons last book. much better.

 

the biggest pointer to police, is a police symbol, but there backstrap isn't fully decorated compared to army.  In the early days they confused the police badge with the imperial chrysanthemum, due stylized similarities.

 

secondly army swords have a 10 petal sukura, while police will have 5 petals.

but there is always a exception to the rules

 

regards H

 

PS if you wish to sell for any reason, give me a email

[ggil]

Will do Hamfish. Since the blade came to me, may as well try and learn its secrets, and im quite fond of it actually. I will be on the lookout for the book you mentioned. Thanks again for the help!