Kyo Or Owari?

[FlorianB]

Gentlemen,

I want to show You a Tsuba.
The size is 81 x 82 mm / 3,18” x 3,22”, the thickness 4,8 mm / 0,18”.
There is no niku and the surface has a moist look (uruoi).

 

My first impression was Kyo-Sukashi because of the thin plate, the small, rounded rim and the sumptuous composition. The hitsu-ana, too, appear a little bit squeezed.

However, the design lacks the elegance and airiness of Kyo. The kiri look more like those I’ve seen in Owari-works. Furthemore, twisted-looking linear tekkotsu partially are seen in the rim.

After all - Owari?
I’m puzzled...

I would be grateful to get Your opinions.

Sincerly,
Florian

[seattle1]

Hello:

 I believe it is Kyo-sukashi, though not of the highest quality, and the Kyo guess comes from the shape of the seppa-dai.

 Arnold F.

[yogoro]

A similar tsuba assigned to Kyo but also a suggestion to school Owari (http://www.users.on.net/~coxm/?page=tsubaI_tsuba)
Owari tsuba, ji-sukashi, maru gata, kozuka and kogai hitsu ana, maru mimi, 8.1 x 7.9 x 0.4 cm, design of eight blossoms of kiri (paulownia) which was the mon of several old clans. Probably late Muromachi to early Edo period.

[FlorianB]

Thanks for Your replies.

 

Concerning the quality: IMHO  it is a very good tsuba and this is the opinion of our leading german expert, too. Although I must admit the difficulty to assess the tsuba by my moderate pictures.

I understand that the pictures by Mikolay show all the same tsuba, on one hand offered as Kyo-Sukashi - and as an example for Owari on the other hand.

Well, You see my problem...

However, it is interesting to compare both pieces. The shape of the kiri on the tsuba in Mikolaj's post appear in my eyes more like Kyo, but the seppa-dai and the ryo-hitsu hint to Owari.

Furthermore the herein mentioned time offers a wider range. I think, if it is Owari it can't be older than early Edo, if it is Kyo it could be earlier, around Momoyama.

 

Thanks thus far,

Florian

[yogoro]

Florian , I agree with you .
Sometimes the assignment to school is not quite obvious. Knowns patterns and themes are large facilitation .
Some of points make it difficult to established appropriate attribution
In picture below a few sukashi tsuba : on the left is Kyo , right side  is Owari , center Kyo/Owari

[seattle1]

Hello:

 Assessment of the quality of the tsuba is in the eye of the beholder I suppose, however the initial execution of the design elements, the quality of the kebori, and the surface condition are substantially wanting IMHO.

 As to Kyo or Owari, a general feeling, imperfectly derived from a photograph, usually assigns, without consideration of other factors, those that are more robust to Owari. The tsuba in question does not express that strength. The key though is the seppa-dai. If you examine a large number of Kyo and Owari in comparison with one another, e.g., in the book Sasano, you will see that the upper left and right quadrants of the seppa-dai tend (and it is only "tend" and a numbers comparison) to by more asymmetric in Kyo than Owari; particularly the upper right of the Kyo tends to be a little less rounded in comparison with Owari. That is not always seen, but often, and were the tsuba a strong Owari design, it could perhaps be ignored.

 Arnold F.

[MauroP]

...when in doubt remember to say: Shōami!

Bye, Mauro

[FlorianB]

Shoami, yes, this COULD BE the ultimate answer, but not a satisfying one, I’m afraid. Nice try, Mauro.

Mikolaj, a gorgeous collection, I’m deeply impressed!

Arnold, I agree with you that the curvature in the upper part of the seppa dai differs on each side. This was a helpful advice! In future I will pay more attention to a carefully examination of seppa-dai.

Finally, what do You think about the tekkotsu? Does it go with Kyo? I remember a similar discussion in which the apperance of tekkotsu was the decisive clue for an Owari-attribution.

Sincerly,
Florian

[sabi]

Good thread, one of my favorite subjects of old iron is the many examples of "cross-fertilization" between different styles.

 

The post by Mikolaj is a great example of this and while I'm not always sold on papers being a definitive answer, I think they got that one right.

 

I agree with Arnold's observation. The seppa dai tends to be more slanted and less stout on Kyo pieces, this is evident with Florian's tsuba. If you look at the second guard posted, it exhibits the rounder variant. Im thinking with the piece in hand, the iron was much more suited to Kyo and that determined the final result. But I don't think it can be denied that it has a strong Owari influence. Thickness could have played a big part in the Kyo decision as well at 0.4cm.

 

Florian, I believe your tsuba to be Kyo. The shape of the seppa dai and squeezed hitsu ana you mentioned, softer stylism and rounded rim lead me to that educated guess. Patina looks good and it apoera to have a bit if age to it from here as well!

 

-Evan

[FlorianB]

Again thanks for Your opinions.

In case of Japanese blades it is in most cases a downgrade when the style is not typical for a smith or school (kawari-deki). In how far this applies to tsuba as well I don’t know.

Recently I’ve heard by an expert that even the traditional classification of tsuba-”schools” has to be reviewed because many producers worked in different styles either because they where inspired by other works or to satisfy customers wishes. My tsuba maybe seems to support this assumption.

 

Florian

[sabi]

Apologies Florian... I missed your reply a few months back, was just browsing and came across this again.

 

 

I don't know much about swords, but I am familiar with the concept of kawari-deki.  Regarding tsuba, there are some that have been given a "Den" notation; generally meaning that the guard shows clear traits of one school, plus or minus a certain characteristic.  I can't say if this is taken negatively by collectors or the organizations that issue papers.  At the end of the day, a good tsuba is a good tsuba regardless of its attribution.

 

 

This thread covers it to an extent and I thank those that posted in it. I'm simply re-stating what I've learned.

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/17408-den-kanayama/?hl=kanayama

 

 

 

I won't pretend to know enough to suggest that the classification system needs to be revisited, but I completely agree with the assumption that there were artists who produced tsuba in different styles, either due to customer commissions or personal artistic inspiration.  There's a wonderful article on ceramic wares of the Momoyama/Early Edo period that details excavations of Kyoto based kilns.  It shows that provincial style tea accessories were produced locally and suggests that at least in some cases, the potters themselves re-located from Seto, Mino etc. rather than them simply being copied by local artists (which I'm sure also occurred to great extent).  In addition, it's well known that the great ink masters of this period traveled all over Japan to paint commissioned works.  Could there have been some tsubako who re-located, thus owing to some of the blended styles that we encounter?  If craftsmen in other disciplines did, I certainly think it's plausible.  Fun stuff either way!

 

 

I also own a tsuba that shows traits of both Owari and Kyo.  Jim Gilbert believes it to be a guard that was made in Kyoto, but with a strong dose of Owari thrown in.  I agree with the assessment, particularly citing the overall aesthetic and iron itself.  The composition is loaded with finesse, but the execution is rather bold.  I believe the hitsu ana to be slightly wide compared to the average Kyo piece and the patina is deep and dark, much like many Owari tsuba of the period.  The key point for me though is the iron and the finish, as it's without a doubt Kyo style.  The seppa dai is also classic Kyo Sukashi.  I do agree with Jim that given the context of the time, it seems highly unlikely that this guard was made in Owari with Kyo iron. 

 

 

 

And man, on that note I should really get back to work!  

 

Here are a couple shots of mine, because who doesn't love pics? 

 

 

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

Florian,

I missed this interesting thread until now, but I want to make a remark concerning the MIMI, which is not formed by TEKKOTSU, I think, but it is a variation of NAWA MIMI. This may lead to a closer classification aside from OWARI or KYO SUKASHI, I hope. 

[FlorianB]

Jean,

 

at first I thought so too, but the linear traces appear only partial on the rim and they aren't easily visible so I was lucky to catch them in the shot.

 

Florian

[FlorianB]

Evan,

 

indeed a gorgeous tsuba! Judging by the pictures alone and without knowledge of the dimensions the steel surface and the seppa-dai (as mentioned above) could hint to Kyo, because of the sturdy execution it shows otherwise Owari traits.

But that's only speculation. It was a very popular subject so I think, also other schools can be considered. I'm not sure, but are there horizontal layers visible in nakago-ana and the hitsu-ana, too?

 

I found a similar Owari-tsuba in Sasano's book, classified as late Muromachi. Yours must be later, IMHO about early Edo - Genroku.

 

 

Florian

 

[sabi]

Hey Florian, thanks for the picture!

 

I'm stunned I haven't seen that one before. Which book is it from? It's hands down the most similar Musashino rendition I've come across, almost shockingly so.

 

Mine is fairly large at 8.4 x 8.3 x .5 and good eye, there is a visible fold line in the hitsu ana. It also has a few very subtle globular tekkotsu on the face of the plate.

 

I really enjoy Sasano's comments as well, in particular on the iron/patina and the nod to the seppa dai and hitsu ana . One thing that stands out to me regarding the composition of my tsuba is how well shaped and proportioned they are, and the deep purple tones are in full display.

 

 

I tend to agree with Jim's assessment that it's more in the Momoyama range. I think the size along with the bold, carefree execution of the motif are pretty spot on for the period. The depth of the patina and the construction method also argues for earlier. Of course, this is only my opinion.

 

Thanks so much again for that picture, made my day!

[FlorianB]

Hi Evan,

the shot was taken from Masayuki Sasano’s “Early Japanese Sword Guards - Sukashi Tsuba” published 1974.

I remembered this peculiar tsuba because of the rather unusual design that seems not typical for Owari. Furthermore it is the only one with Musashino motif in my books and picture collection with pierced dewdrops.

Florian