Unusual mei help

[pcfarrar]

This wakizashi was recently rescued from an owner that was using it to chop firewood (luckily the damage to the blade is minimal).

 

We think it might be signed as below.

 

Anyone have any ideas?

 

Thanks,

 

Peter

[Guest reinhard]

Hi Peter,

 

The kanji on top reads (on-reading) ETSU, as the first kanji in Etchu,Echizen or Echigo. What comes afterwards looks something like TAKA-DA or TAKA-X(?). The third kanji above the cut-off end can hardly be FUKU (as in Fukui). It has a different radical and looks very different in general. The last (visible) Kanji reads HO and can be found in the Nelson. Standing alone, it means: male phoenix bird.

 

This mei doesn't make sense to me and looks pretty suspicious.

 

reinhard

[Bugyotsuji]

As Reinhard says, except I get 越Etsu 高田Takada then ...? 平Taira?

 

Below the mekugi ana and to the left follows: 松井　Matsui (*the first is an old kanji for Matsu) and then 鳳　Ho- and the top Kanmuri lid of something which should follow Ho- , but I can't find any common jukugo with follow-on Kanji starting with the keisan-kanmuri.

 

* Kadokawa's 新字源"Shinjigen", Kanji no. 3504, p.493

[k morita]

shin臣

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

臣 can be also read TOMI

Like Toyotomi Hideyoshi 豊臣秀吉

[Nobody]

臣 can be also read TOMI

Like Toyotomi Hideyoshi 豊臣秀吉

Generally, that is correct. But in this case, I think that the appropriate reading for 臣 may be "shin".

 

越高田臣 means "a feudatory (臣) of Takada clan (高田[藩]) in Echigo (越[後])". Matsui (柗井) may be his family name.

The smith might be one in the line of Matsui Sadahide (松井貞英) or his son Matsui Sadatoshi (松井貞壽) in Etsu Takada (越高田).

 

 

notes) typos were corrected (Matsuda ---> Matsui), Dec. 10

[Jacques]

臣 can also be read ASON

[Nobody]

臣 can also be read ASON

Ah, kanji for ASON are usually 朝臣.

[Jacques]

臣 can also be read ASON

Ah, kanji for ASON are usually 朝臣.

 

 

right, i need a coffee. Think we must be take it in "han" meaning.

[Guest reinhard]

Why MATSUDA? I read MATSUI.

 

reinhard

[Nobody]

Why MATSUDA? I read MATSUI.

 

reinhard

Sorry, that typo was my careless mistake. Of course, Matsui (松井) is correct.

[Guest reinhard]

Apart from the meaning, the mei is very doubtful because of its style. Usually a mei is either set above, partially aside or below the mekugi-ana; or it is added before the mekugi-ana was made. In either case the mei keeps its proportions. In this case the writing starts with more or less regularly shaped kanji and changes to vertically squeezed ones below the mekugi-ana. Furthermore the chiselling is executed in a poor and clumsy way.

This may be a little early, but I think, you could give the wood-chopper his tool back without risking too much.

 

reinhard

[k morita]

swordsmith is Sadatoshi.

[Bugyotsuji]

Wow! This site has some amazing detective work going on!!!

[Brian]

Morita san,

 

Wow..that is some impressive work!

Well done.

 

Yep Reinhard..I do think it is a little early to be making that call (one which I think we should never make anyways..even gimei isn't a write-off?)

 

Brian

[pcfarrar]

Thanks everyone it's an interesting wakizashi. Very wide, thick kasane with an o-kissaki. I'll try and get some pictures next weekend. It belongs to a friend so gimei or not doesn't matter :lol:

 

The blade is also in a good quality koshirae.

[Nobody]

FYI;

The following links show some photos of Sadahide wakizashi (Sadatoshi's father).

 

http://www.finesword.co.jp/sale/touken/ ... dahide.htm

http://www.e-sword.jp/sale/0610_2028syousai.htm

[Guest reinhard]

I couldn't find any reference material about SADATOSHI, but looking at the mei of SADAHIDE (his father) Moriyama-san kindly provided us with, I recognize a tremendous discrepancy of skills and style in writing. According to sword books, Hosai SADATOSHI worked during the middle of 19th century and in those times, elaborate and stylish mei were highly appreciated; I dare say: a must be.

Maybe I will be proven wrong, but this mei looks to me as one chosen from a book and clumsily reproduced.

Prove me to be wrong.

 

reinhard

[Nobody]

I cannot judge the authenticity of the mei, as I am not an expert. However, one point I realize is that the chiselling is not so bad. The style looks like typical Reisho-tai (隷書体).

[Guest reinhard]

Hello Moriyama-san,

 

The suggestion of Reisho-tai is convincing in the context of a "back to the roots"-movement, widespread during the Bakumatsu days. My problem with this mei is: Although the swordmaking tended to follow this ideal, the way the mei were cut did not. From Suishinshi Masahide and Taikei Naotane to Kiyomaro and Gassan Sadakazu: They (and their students) were inspired by old masters as far as their blades were concerned, but their mei are well-done and followed the aesthetic rules of their times, varying only in their individual style and this is true for all of the Shinshinto smiths, that come to my mind (without having checked the books yet). A mei like the one above would probably have been despised as crude and vulgar by a potential customer. If you can show me a similar mei in (clumsy) Reisho-tai writing, dating from the Bakumatsu-time, I will gladly revise my opinion.

 

reinhard

[Nobody]

If you can show me a similar mei in (clumsy) Reisho-tai writing, dating from the Bakumatsu-time, I will gladly revise my opinion.

reinhard,

 

There is at least one example.

 

Shinkei Tanemitsu (心慶胤光):

http://sinogi.dee.cc/katarogu/1501/tane ... itu-k.html

 

However, I do not insist that the mei (Sadatoshi?) in question is genuine.

[John A Stuart]

Hi, not having the knowlege to determine good or bad calligraphy, I post this oshigata, although not a shinshinto revival reishotai mei, of a Jumyo nakago that displays, to me mind you, script that looks, well, sloppy compared to the standard calligraphy seen in most mei.

[Guest reinhard]

Moriyama-san,

 

Your example illustrates my point: The mei of TANEMITSU is stylish, well-balanced and confident. It keeps its proportions from top to bottom and satisfies the conditions. Although executed in Reisho-tai-style it is quite different from the Hosai SADATOSHI mei in question, as far as the execution is concerned.

 

John,

 

Your illustration reminds me of old sword-books, where mei were rather painted than rubbed. It is very difficult to interprete these.

 

reinhard