Shigetaka Generation

[shibeni]

Hello, to which generation will poit fact if the blade Shigetaka has also inscription of the date: February 1623.To Shodai or Nidai generation. As in references Nidai starts from 1624. On Hbthk Hozon papers is not exactly pointed (Shodai)?

Thank you for this info.,

Bojan

[shibeni]

From the swordsmith data base Shodai Shigetaka finish at year 1615. What's in years in between..from 1615 to 1624 year?

Thank you,

Bojan

[Ed Harbulak]

The Keicho era ended in 1615, that does not mean Shigetaka finished working in 1615. If your blade is dated 1623 it could have probably been made by either the first or second generation. Hope this helps a little.

[shibeni]

Thank you Ed. I looked at Swordsmith index that 2.generation start to work from 1624..But as Nbthk shinsha din't mentioned (Shodai) on Hozon paper, it's probably the work of Nidai..or thay put this remark only when they are 99% sure..

Regards,

Bojan

[Ed Harbulak]

To further complicate the situation, Fujjishiro lists the Shodai Harima dai jo Shiketaka as working in Kanei which is 1624 to 1644 and the second generation is listed as Kanbun 1661 to 1673. You have to remember that the jidai listed for sword smiths are not precise, exact working dates. Most every sword smith generally worked before and after the relatively short years covered by the jidai that is associated with the smith in various indexes. Unless you can find the date when a particular smith died you really don't know when a smith stopped making swords. Because of the difference in dates between Fujishiro for example and Markus's sword index, your Shiketake could be by either the shodai or nidai. Also remember that the sugata of the blade can give an indication of the time period when the blade was made. I have a second generation Harima dai jo Shiketaka that has a Kanbun shinto shape, so it seems the nidai was working into the Kanbun era. If the date on your blade is 1623, there is a very good chance it was made by the shodai. You need to do some more research to see if you can find when each of the sword smiths was born and died if you want to have a better idea of their working dates. Also compare the mei on your sword with genuine mei of the shodai and nidai and see which one matches your blade. Good luck with your research.

[shibeni]

Thank you very much Ed for this lesson, yes I will do reserch. Hope to find photo of genuine Shodai mei to compare.

Best regards,

Bojan

[Geraint]

Hi Bojan.

 

Ed has summed it up nicely, there is not quite the degree of certainty that we might like surrounding this group.  I have done a bit of digging as I have two blades, one I think shodai and the other nidai.

Would love to see some pictures of yours.

 

Meanwhile have a look here for some more information. http://www.sanmei.com/contents/media/K14093_W8260_PUP_E.htm

 

Ed is also right that sugata can help, generally speaking if you see Kanbun sugata then it is nidai and shodai tends to have a less controlled and regular hamon from what I have seen.

 

All the best.

[shibeni]

Hello, Shigetaka is on the way to me.So pictures will be post after few days.

Is it possible for more trainned eye to find if this two mei are written from same smith. Black an white reference is NBTHK Hozon papered Shodai Shigetaka- brown photo is mine (dated 1623).I put two pictures together on mobile phone.

Thank you,

Bojan S.

[Ed Harbulak]

Hi Bojan,

The NBTHK Shodai Shigetaka mei looks very much like on your blade. If I remember correctly, the Shige Kanji for the Nidai looks somewhat different than the Shodai. I'm not an expert, but my guess is your blade is by the shodai. Because your blade is dated 1623 the NBTHK probably felt it wasn't necessary to mention which generation since the date on your blade should give you a good idea that it is the shodai. If your blade is coming from the sword polisher, you can always ask him which generation he thinks it is.

[shibeni]

Thank you very much Ed. I was thought that shinsha put remark (shodai) allways when they are 100%. I realy find only reference oshigatas (shodai and nidai)that are not of the blades with inscribed dates.Posted signatures are real very similar.I will show pictures of the blade when it comes.

Regards,

Bojan S.

[SAS]

I am certainly no expert on mei, but to me it looks like your mei is by a different hand than the other one posted. I do not know enough to draw any conclusion from this.

[shibeni]

Hello, I add nidai gen. oshigata (2.) Looks more diferent to me.

Bojan S.

[Ed Harbulak]

Borjan, look very closely at the small box shape in the kanji for shige in the pictures of the two nakago you have above and compare them to each other. The kanji for shige in the left nakago shows the way the shodai wrote shige and the one to the right, where the horizontal lines are nearer to the bottom of the box with a space above is the way the nidai wrote shige. That difference should allow you to determine which generation made your sword.

[shibeni]

Thank you Ed for this info. I looked at diferent nbthk papers and it confirm your observation on kanji Shige..shodai (lines in the center of the box) and nidai ( at the bottom). Another good reference of papeted Shodai.

Thank you and best regards,

Bojan S.

[cisco-san]

Hi,

 

from Markus book an Oshigata from 2nd gen Shigetaka.

 

[shibeni]

Hello,

Here are som pictures of the blade and Nakago.

Regards,

Bojan S.