What is a valuable antique?

[Bugyotsuji]

When I bought my long gun Hinawa-ju Tanegashima for live use at public displays, what clinched the deal for me was the uranenki date beside the Mei on the barrel.

 

The inscription was 肥後住尚次作　Higo ju Naotsugu Saku, (Made by Naotsugu living in Higo) (i.e. in or near Kumamoto, Kyushu) and among the other characters 弘化四年　Kouka 4 nen, (1847).

 

My Japanese friends laughed at me for prizing the date. They said that guns rarely have dates, and that the date is a meaningless piece of information. Everything of importance can be gleaned from the gun itself, they said. The same with Nihon-to. Most of them laugh at the paperwork too. "Why do you bother to send it for shinsa? It's a waste of good money!" I do believe that this is what they truly think. In general. (It may be different up at the top end where the experts struggle.) But then I started to ask myself whether there was something deep inside the 'Western' psyche that demands every extra bit of proof?

 

Reminds me of the idea that marriage is only a bit of paper and what is important is the quality of the relationship, not the paperwork or legal status.

 

Is a Japanese happy and confident to own a katana without paperwork, whereas the Westerner (perhaps unable to get to a gathering of 'expert' sages) will demand some paperwork from said place before he/she feels truly happy and confident in the object?

[remzy]

The way i see it, a sword that is papered isnt worth more than one that isnt, but a sword that isnt papered might lose value on the trade market on the western market due to the general lack of widespread knowledge of nihonto... all perceptions there.

[Bugyotsuji]

So, is it the merchant instinct inside me that wants to have the paperwork, Remy?

 

Or if not the merchant wishing to make a profit, then the realist? Insurance? If and when I sell the object, I want to be able to cover my outlay at least? This is actually true in my case. At least I'd like to be able to keep my options open so that if and when I do decide to sell, (or my family after me) for whatever reason, there will not be a big hole in the family's finances.

 

Conversely, does the Japanese Samurai purist like to pretend, to show that he doesn't care about money? Do I lose credibility in his/her eyes as a lover of fine Japanese art and appear more as a buyer/seller at the precise moment when I apply for the shinsa?

[John A Stuart]

I think it is more like proof. An analogy; when amateur history buffs have dialogue about a certain aspect of history it is not enough to make a statement about something and expect it to be taken as truth without providing source reference. Even then the source may be questioned, especially if it is radical in nature. Being as how we are students of nihonto with varying familiarity of the subject it is comforting to know that someone with significantly higher knowledge has proved that what we are looking at is genuine. That is why certain proofs are more respected than others. With this assurance of genuineness value is raised since it has a sense of guaranty. My thoughts anyway. John

[remzy]

Piers,

I do not mean to insult anyone but, some collectors are quite pretentious and in many different fields, i tend to take advices from such persons with a grain of salt... as they say, the less they know, the more they feel the need to prove they know alot... especially when noone asked them a thing!

 

Personnaly i find it quite alright and perfectly fine to have papers for your nihonto, infact i would recommand to get only papered swords when buying online. As you stated, these papers can come in handy for many reasons... insurance, theft, trade, study even... etc.

 

Looking down on papers from a respected organisation sounds like overconfidence in one's knowledge and not quite modest IMHO.

 

Remy

[nagamaki - Franco]

But then I started to ask myself whether there was something deep inside the 'Western' psyche that demands every extra bit of proof?

 

Yes, its called cover my butt when buying and/or selling.

Papers are for the benefit of the next owner, hmm, getting a sense of deja vu here

 

You want how much for an un-papered mumei O-suriage Yukimitsu???

 

Reminds me of the idea that marriage is only a bit of paper and what is important is the quality of the relationship, not the paperwork or legal status.

 

exactly, now be sure to run and tell the mrs. that one only make sure all nihonto and loaded long guns are out of reach and put away before letting her know you wish to tear up the marriage certificate because you truly luv her.

 

Is a Japanese happy and confident to own a katana without paperwork, whereas the Westerner (perhaps unable to get to a gathering of 'expert' sages) will demand some paperwork from said place before he/she feels truly happy and confident in the object?

 

There is a recognition that culture certainly is a strong influence (beliefs, language, etc.), and exposure to good teachers, exposure to good swords, and exposure to much more information (written, etc.), in general are all in favor of the Japanese collector, otherwise be careful making characterizations about what makes one person happy vs another. There are gaijin that have found happiness and confidence without papers too.

[Bugyotsuji]

Some interesting comments and angles there. Thanks everyone. This has been a recurring thought for the last few years and I wondered if others see the same sorts of patterns.

 

Yes, Franco, I am guilty of stereotype and generalization, but it just struck me that even though I've lived here for 30 plus years, there are elements at work in me that are culturally different. It sounds as though you know your swords well enough to be comfortable with what you have. It's good to know that some of us can reach that level.

 

This is probably not just a general Westerner vs Japanese debate as much as one Japanese group/philosophy vs another Japanese group or philosophy.

 

There are shops in Kyoto that specialize in old Imari etc., but they also have to be able to make up certificates for rich Californians. Since I know little about ceramics or pottery I am afraid the paperwork would be very valuable to me. But my J collector friends would probably laugh at me again as they spend their whole life without resorting to such props.

[Guest reinhard]

"Everything of importance can be gleaned from the gun itself, they said. The same with Nihon-to."

 

I don't know anything about guns, but it takes an enormous amount of experience to identify a sword properly and is even more difficult, when it comes to mumei blades. The experts in the boards of reliable organisations have this experience as well as huge libraries to check sword characteristics, signatures etc.. Recources beyond the means of private collectors (Japanese or western). If you want to have a look at it, you could visit the N.B.T.H.K. in the swordmuseum in Tokyo. Higher ranking papers (Juyo and Tokubetsu-Juyo) give you valuable informations about the sword and often explain the decision of the shinsa.

 

reinhard

[remzy]

Not to mention these papers arent lightly given away for the fun of it and they usualy depend on many experts' opinions. let me emphasis on the use of the experts word here.

[Pete Klein]

I am no longer a collector of the sword but now of fittings. I can offer this. There were certificates of authenticity written by the Goto Shirobei masters to authenticate the early (Ko Goto) works of the first masters who did not sign their works. They are worth large amounts of money and significance in their own right and are highly sought after when they accompany these early works. Also, as for swords there are written works hundreds of years old which go into great detail on swords of historic nature and their provenance, assigning relative values to them. Today, several organizations offer papers for both swords and fittings (along with armor et. al) and they were not developed for the non-Japanese but to further the education and authentication of works in Japan. The opening to the outside world came much after their organization. I feel the point here is that no one knows all and that it is of interest to all to further education and enlightenment. These papers are a step in that direction as they allow a centralized study and documentation site all may reference to clarify individual pieces. As information is clarified by this process opinions change but it's the process that these papers allow. Therefore, to paper items and to belong to these organizations is helping to forward the advancement of knowledge and that I am for whole heartedly. That they allow a type of certification which acts as a type of guarantee (not really but the closest we can have) is a nice side benefit. IMHO.

[nagamaki - Franco]

I've lived here for 30 plus years, there are elements at work in me that are culturally different.

 

It is well established in the teaching curriculum that a child's basic psycholgical foundation, that is how he/she perceives the world, is already well established by the age of four. Quite profound.

 

It's good to know that some of us can reach that level.

 

There isn't a patent on this as far as I know, it is available to any and all nihonto collectors. The Japanese have laid out the path, it begins and ends with kantei.

[Bugyotsuji]

May I offer thanks again to those who have offered their opinions here.

 

The thread was more about proof in general, and I was commenting on my satisfaction at having a date on my matchlock, but the conversation veered towards paperwork, so while on the subject here is more hearsay offered from the local level!

 

In the spring of this year I sent off a hirazukuri Wakizashi for NBTHK shinsa. (It already had an old and rather dog-eared certificate from an older organization certifying it as genuine, and the toroku registration paper is one of the first issued.) The splendid blade is early shinto, it has a nice silver habaki and the shirasaya is bound unusually in good silver bands.

 

Unfortunately it came back as failed. Gimei, they said, possibly of the time the sword was made. Well, that's fine, I said, (there was always a possibility of that), but what about the wakizashi itself? "Oh, they never comment on the blade itself", was the answer, "and you won't get their reasons even if you ask." But what about the other katana that came back with 'Kanbun koro' written on the certificate? "Oh, that's different!"

 

Well, I didn't want to rock the boat or anything, so I fell silent. But does anyone here understand this in a way that would make sense to me? Do you get opinions about the age of the blade only if it passes?

 

Several people have advised having the Gimei professionally erased; others (including sword dealers) have said that the gimei (my gimei anyway) sometimes actually increases the value of the wakizashi.

 

It was then explained to me that the total knowledge about Nihonto increases year by year so what may have passed in the past can fail nowadays... Is this also generally accepted truth, I wonder? I realize that with every post I betray my ignorance, but I am enjoying the replies!!! :lol:

[John A Stuart]

That reminds me of the story that was on this forum, where a sword with a mei of a quality smith was determined as gimei and the sword pinked. Subsequently the mei was removed and the sword papered to the same smith as an attributed mumei sword. Strange, but although I know time constraints etc. make it hard for shinsa teams to elaborate on why such and such a decision is reached there should be written explanation of why a blade is passed or not. For the price these papers cost there surely could be a little more forthrightness, even the pinkies. John

[nagamaki - Franco]

The NBTHK (NTHK) are acting on behalf and in the interest of the original sword's maker, not the sword's owner. As long as the mei is gimei, even when it happens to be in the same name as the original swordsmith, it is a misrepresentation. It is quite understandable if a real Kunihiro showed up with a false Kunihiro mei, why the NBTHK (NTHK) wouldn't hand out a piece a paper stating that fact.

[Guest reinhard]

Organisations like N.B.T.H.K. try to build up knowledge and identifying mei correctly is one important field amongst others. Kindly ignoring an obvious gimei, even if the sword can be attributed to this smith, would not only undermine the organisation's credibility, but would also lead all people astray, who will investigate the same subject in the future.

 

reinhard

[Jean]

It is a fantastic topic and furthermore a philosophical one - (I dig these "gut" topics)

 

As all pilosophical topics, it begins by a question :

 

"What is a valuable antique ?"

 

It has to be splited in three topics :

 

 

1 - What are we talking about when referring to "valuable" :

 

- Sentimental

- Money

 

2 - can we limit this topic to antique and should it not be widened to Art object?

 

3 - This lead to the last questions : can we validate the following equations:

 

- Antique = Art Object?

- Antique = Art Object = money = market trend = fashion?

 

I shall let every NMB members do their homework :D :D :D

[Bugyotsuji]

Perhaps my posts have seemed critical. If so, apologies. I tend to be slightly aggressive when I can't understand something!!! Perhaps not aggressive, but panicky, especially in the presence of august and seemingly inaccesible, unassailable bodies or institutions. Thanks for the replies and patience in answering my questions. And yes, you have furthered my understanding! Step by step we get to Rome. One day I'll get there.

 

But there has been a reply in the meantime! Hooray! Back to the drawing board!

[Jean]

Piers,

 

That is a splendid topic!!!!

 

Every people buying/collecting have asked themselves this question.

 

To get answers, one has to proceed with methodology and point out the good questions and according to his (honest :lol: :lol: :lol:) answers get somme answers ...

[Bugyotsuji]

It's such a difficult question in a way Jean. You have split it up quite rightly into its various parts. Iam not sure if an equal sign is possible towards the end, though...

 

A shapeless lump of gold may not be artistic, and it may not be antique (more ageless/timeless, since it doesn't sully or go dark) but it is attractive with its colour and brightness, and the twinkle appeals to something in people, so much so that they are willing to barter other objects in order to possess some of this material.

 

A cave drawing can hold the human eye if it has been done well enough to convince the beholder of an animal's likeness. This may be artistic and with each passing generation may gain in value culturally as it becomes an antique drawing, providing a link to now-dead humans (intelligent or even genius). Perhaps like gold, a good work of art causes time to disappear as we see the artistic intellect of someone hundreds of years ago still shining and stimulating the same thing inside us.

 

When the most valuable materials are entrusted into the hands of the greatest artists of the time, then something truly valuable can be born. Some of Salvador Dali's jewellery comes to mind. Something many people can look at and agree on. It may capture the feeling of the time too, and in that sense be fashionable too.

 

But when we open up we are potentially vulnerable to those who would profess to know better. It might not actually be gold that we are looking at, but fool's gold, or tinsel. "All that glisters is not gold." You fool! You idiot! You thought this was valuable! Hahahahaha........... So we hedge our bets, and build defenses, as watertight as possible. But then there are the tricksters who believe that they can convince humans that Omega is in fact Alpha.

 

And so on and so on, and I find myself rambling, and running out of time again... and perhaps someone else can pick up the baton!!! :lol:

[Jean]

You are right in your analysis, Piers.

 

1 - What are we talking about when referring to "valuable" :

 

- Sentimental

- Money

 

- Sentimental : I love my antiques whether Minerals/fossiles/paintings/swords, they are valuable to my eyes because they are a reflection of my personnality. Nothing is innocuous (Dr Freud speaking)

 

- Money : as long as it is an out-of-pocket expenses, antiques are not conveying Money principle. Unfortunately, Nihonto is an expensive hobby and convey Money flavour ===> investments .....

 

2 - can we limit this topic to antique and should it not be widened to Art object?

 

It could be, when Art objects are Antiques - but All Art objects are not Antiques and reciprocally (my fossiles/minerals collections).

 

3 - This lead to the last questions : can we validate the following equations:

 

- Antique = Art Object?

- Antique = Art Object = money = market trend = fashion?

 

- Antique = Art Object

 

No, as Dust can be Antique but in some cases it can be, in mathematics, we could say : Antique>Art objects (in quantity)

 

- Antique = Art Object = money = market trend = fashion?

 

In fact, Antique as Art Object = money when there is a market then the market is subject to trends and fashion

 

Let's someone else carry on......

[John A Stuart]

Antique- An arbitrary designation placed upon an object by convention. 100 years is standard, for some things less eg. cars. I'm over halfway to becoming an antique myself, not sure if my value has increased or not.

Value- Market economics determine this. Rarity and desire.

The ephemeral value on a personal level which can't be calculated on a commercial level. eg. an especial gift of a loved one.

Objet d'Arte- Another undefinable attribute usually determined, again, by convention. Somewhat in flux as tastes change, eg. Rembrandt's

artwork will always be appreciated as art but will Andy Warhol's Campbell's Soup stand the test of time.

Basically a valued antique is something relitively older that can be appreciated on a personal level. John

[Jean]

Very good John,

 

Value- Market economics determine this. Rarity and desire.

 

I shall simply say Offer and Demand.

 

Other Analysis from any other NMB member?