How To Understand Hard And Soft Jijane

[lonely panet]

Hi guys, I was just reading

 

THE INFLUENCE OF THE YAMASHIRO TRADITION ON THE HISTORY OF THE Japanese SWORD

 

 it got me thinking after hearing "soft and hard" hada and or jijane so may times, can someone actually do a visual photo comparison for me as to help me make sure what im thinking is what there trying to explain

[CSM101]

Hello Hamfish,

 

I dont know, what you want to see in photos, but I think, there is no way to see the difference in a photo if it is soft or hard.

Try to find out the soft jigane.

 

Uwe G.

[lonely panet]

I would say 1 and 3, hope im not to far out

[Taz575]

I would say 1, 3 and 4 are softer and 2 and 5 are harder.  Harder steel often polishes "clearer" and more mirror like, where softer steel tends to be more matte finish, but this is based on my clad kitchen knife experience.  Tamahagane and other steels may look different based on the composition of the steels themselves, so some steel may look clear, but still be "soft" and vice versa.  Of course, it all depends on the polisher, too and how the steel is polished and with what stones.  Then the photography itself; was the white balance or other settings tweaked to show the hada more clearly?  Lots of variables would come into play, so I am not sure if one could tell this from a photograph or not.

[CSM101]

1 = Enju - Yamashiro school

2 = Sue Soshu

3 = Bizen Unji

4 = late 19. century tourist crap

5 = Rai Kunitsugu - Yamashiro school

 

And now: 3 x suguha, Have fun!

 

Uwe G.

[paulb]

Hi Hamish

I dont think it is possible to see such a subtle difference in photgraphs. If you look at kamakura period swords especially Yamashiro and Bizen work the steel looks softer, I know it sounds daft. I think the surface is slightly less reflective, someone once described it as looking at grey velvet. If you put a kamakura blade alongside a shinto piece the shinto blade looks brighter, possibly more glassy in appearance and the hada boundaries are less subtle. This combintion gives the appearance of hardness.

I am speaking in very broad generalities there are shinto smiths who come very close to the koto exmples mentioned but they dont quite get there.

Sorry I know this sounds very vague but when you go to the DTI (I think you dsaid you planned to) try and look at some perfectly polished Rai or Bizen swords and then compare to top quality Osaka or Hizen work. I think you will see a difference.

[Andi B.]

Hi Uwe,

the first suguha is too easy for me , but for the others I have no clue.

Do we actually have to look at the hamon too, to decide whether the steel might be hard or soft:

“Softer steel goes with harder nie based hamon“, “harder steel combined with softer nioi bases hamon“?

Or is this nonsens?

Is it really a question of hard and soft material or is it the “appearence“ only?

[paulb]

I think (opinion) That it is actually softer.

I had not heard the nie/softer steel argument before and I am not sure why that should be. Bizen steel is described in some references as soft but their hamon almost exclusively nioi. late Edo Satsuma blades have bright and clear ara nie but I have never heard their steel desctribed as soft.

The ability to form nie has to do with heating the steel to a certain temperature, holding it there and then cooling it quickly. It may be that the higher carbon content in harder jigane lends itself more easily to the formation of nie in which case you would be more likely to see nie in blades with harder jigane (higher carbon) than soft.

[Andi B.]

I heared the theory, that the availibility of only softer source steel was compensated by creating a harder hamon style. And if hard steel was used, a very hard and brittle edge was avoided...(?)

But I think, hard and soft is relative, when talking about a cutting edge...

[SAS]

The technology of the times usually would dictate the construction methods used, which would bear on "hard" or "soft" steel used. I think the terms have more relevance to polishers, as they are the ones putting steel to stone.  I am very curious for an explanation of what is meant by a "weak jigane" as seen in the Connoisseurs Guide; to me it seems they are speaking of the lack of a folding pattern (created by multiple folds) which seems backwards as more folds= cleaner/stronger steel. Thoughts?

[CSM101]

Question is, if you can decide by a photo, if it is hard or soft jigane. And I think, that you cannot say so by a photo.

 

1. Shiga Seki                                          This would be hard jigane.

2. Enju                                                   Again, the same sword like in the first photo, but this time the omote. An here you can see clearly a different type of steel. Less chikei and more jinie. Soft jigane.

3. Shinano no Kami Fujiwara Daido       hard jigane

 

The problem is, that a sword has three dimensions and in a photo you have only two. You must hold a sword in your hands to make the decision if it is hard or not.

 

 

And now: Wales! Go for it!

 

 

Uwe G.

[kissakai]

Hi Uwe and all you lucky Welsh supporters

Will the 2nd goal end up as the goal of the tournament?

 

 

Grev

[ROKUJURO]

Gentlemen,

for me these technical/mechanical terms (hard, soft, weak, etc.) are not at all helpful in a descriptive context unless they can be measured and compared. The same applies to the adjective "dense" when used in the description of an iron TSUBA. This will always end in an endless discussion, based on feelings and impressions. I am sure there are better ways to describe visual effects. A JIGANE may appear fine or coarse, regular or irregular, matt or shiny etc. 

It's the same with a 'strong looking guy' - is he really strong or does he only have broad shoulders? Not helpful as a description!  

[paulb]

you may not regard it as helpful but it has been used for a very long time and accepted by many before you.

to be honest much that we describe about swords has more to do with impression than fact and after a time you can begin to undestand and see what the writer is getting at.Part of the problem is that when learning we tend to regard impression as fact and then seek to justify them in concrete terms. Sometimes you cant you can only say how it looks or feels.

[ROKUJURO]

Paul,

even if something has been in use or a custom for a long time, it still could be replaced by something better. An old mistake is still a mistake, and if something is described with terms of impression or feeling, we should try to find better fitting descriptions which allow a more impartial judgement.

I underline what you are writing:....."Part of the problem is that when learning we tend to regard impression as fact and then seek to justify them in concrete terms"......Yes, that is also my own observation for almost 40 years now that I am into NIHONTO, and it is the same problem wherever 'experts' write about arts. The empurpled texts often leave a lot to guess about what the author really wanted to express. I wished there was less guesswork involved! 

[paulb]

Jean

I absolutely agree with you that we should not stand still and always try and improve. However just saying something is "not at all helpful" and wanting to revert to measurement doesnt move anything forward. As you rightly point out the problem is not specific to Nihonto but other forms of art. Whether we like it or not much that is appreciated in art is subjective. We attempt to rationalise what is in many ways an emotional response to what we are seeing. Hence we fall over.

Also in translation you start to see patterns emerge and this is one reason doing regular shijo kantei help. You see terms such as "the hamon is worn down" which actually means difused or subtle, "coarse" may mean clearly visible or just "coarse", "weak hada" indistinct. In all cases these are quantifiable terms used to describe subjective comparison.

BTW the author of the text mentioned has never used "empurpled text" whatever that is and certainly makes no claim to be an expert. Equally he may get a little sensitive if 7 years after something is written it is described as "not at all helpful" . (its been a challenging week)

[Taz575]

I think another issue is in todays world, most of the learning is done online/books with pictures and text rather than actually physically handling the item.  For example, the Shigekuni Wakizashi I got from the Classifieds recently was described as "clear" jigane.  The pictures kinda showed it a little, but in hand, it was a whole different level.  So when people see "coarse" jigane, weak jigane, clear jigane etc on a sword in person, it registers so much better than if someone is reading a description of what those terms means without ever having seen a sword in hand with those traits.  Or they may think what they are seeing is correct because they haven't seen the difference between coarse and fine, strong and weak, etc to be able to make those determinations.  If you think about it, many of the texts we look at well predate the Internet era and were based on hands on physical study.  People who were into Nihonto met and handled these blades and discussed them in person.  Now, a lot of this is done online and many of these terms now seem obscure, vague, out of date, etc to those just learning mostly by internet and book and without being able to physically handle many blades.

 

When you think about it, hard and soft jigane strikes me as funny...it's metal, most of which aren't considered "soft"!  I think of hard and soft as heat treated/tempered versus annealed steel from my knife background, but in the case of swords, it's a completely different meaning.

[Brian]

Might I add that a lot (all?) of what is being discussed here relies on a top grade and professional polish?
A good polish will allow one to see things that we don't normally see. A bad, amateur polish can make even the best quality hada look hard and unnatural. As does acid.

[lonely panet]

good opinions raised by all, I can agree with TAZ's points in regards to much learning online (we are doing with the board to a degree).

 

meeting with people to discuss and handle blades can only occur in if there is enough people whom study swords, and with the increasing cost and fading interest sadly I think it will continue to shrink in scale.

 

There is no groups in Australia that Im aware of, apart from the odd SHINSA group funded by a few collectors that come over from Japan. This is why im travelling to the DTI to study many quality sword to advance my leanring because reading will only get you so far.

 

Paul thank you for your hint on comparing ko-koto Bizen and Rai to Shinto Osaka and Hizen hada, I have a note book with a checklist of what im going to study and look for. I really look forward to talking/learning from may experanced people. NOTE the boat trip! I cant wait

 

Regards h