Should I Be Worried If A Sword Is Shipped From Japan Immediately?

[bryantholland]

Hello all.  I'm new to collecting nihonto and looking for a bit of advice.

 

I recently purchased a sword on eBay.  The sword and seller are located in Japan.  I completed the auction, made payment a couple days later, and the seller mailed out my sword the very same day when my payment was received.

 

I was under the impression that Japanese swords had to be de-registered before they could be mailed, and that this process usually took a week or two.  But in this case, I made payment on Sunday afternoon (local time in Tokyo), the sword was mailed on Monday afternoon, and (according to the tracking info) it arrived in the US on Wednesday afternoon.  It feels a little bit backwards to be worried about a seller who ships too fast, but in this case, it has me a bit worried.

 

Does this seem suspicious at all?

 

The eBay seller is "high5japan."  I did actually search this board for that seller, and there were only a couple of hits, neither of which was a definite "stay away."  He was responsive to my questions before I bid, and he has a decent eBay reputation (though I know that this is easily gamed...).

 

The sword is allegedly papered and the price seemed reasonable.  I honestly don't care about resale value; I just want to know that the sword isn't a fake.

 

Is it possible to authenticate either the NBTHK papers or the copy of the registration card?

 

Any other help or advice is appreciated.

 

 

Thanks.

 

 

 -Bryant

[Stephen]

lets see the auction link, maybe he just bought it and could send out ,,,,idk

[bryantholland]

Sure: would appreciate any other opinions about the sword itself as well: http://www.ebay.com/itm/272272290912

 

But the general questions remain: is it is usual for the de-registration process to take a while, or is it generally possible to ship swords out of the country immediately?  And is it possible to authenticate NBTHK papers or copies of the registration cards included with swords from Japan?

 

Thanks.

 

 

 -Bryant

[Taz575]

I got one from Daimyou45eb and it shipped a couple of days later.  I don't know if the sword was de registered, or if they just don't bother waiting for the de reg to go thru before they ship. 

[Stephen]

Sword looks ok...per the rules?? Ill let one of the deep thinkers respond...id not worry about the sword police knocking on your door.

[Brian]

He exported it illegally. That is the only answer, let's not be subtle here.
You didn't do anything wrong, and you won't get into trouble. But he is responsible for the export process. I expect this has nothing to do with the sword itself. I suspect it happens a lot.
Just enjoy your sword. Things will catch up with him eventually. Do not encourage things like this, but no need to go mad and make a huge scene either. Maybe he does apply after the fact..not sure if that is possible.

[bryantholland]

I got one from Daimyou45eb and it shipped a couple of days later.  I don't know if the sword was de registered, or if they just don't bother waiting for the de reg to go thru before they ship. 

 

I was also considering a sword from this seller as well.  Were you pleased with the piece you bought, and the overall interaction?

 

Thanks.

[Grey Doffin]

The sword is not a fake, the paper is real, the price you paid was not unreasonable, I think you did quite well considering that you're new to Nihonto, you were buying on ebay, and you were buying a Japanese sword from Japan: a combination of factors that often leads to trouble.  No idea why the seller could export so quickly but all else seems OK.  Congrats.

And now you need to commit some resources (time and money) to study.  Without more knowledge your next purchase could just as easily be a disaster.

Grey

[Stephen]

Have you ever known ol dad to be subtle???

[Jussi Ekholm]

What if the eBay seller had already started the deregistration process so it would be finished when the auction ends?

 

When you have a nihonto with NBTHK papers starting from 0,00$'s on eBay it's most likely that someone outside Japan will buy it.

 

Just my thoughts...

[Shugyosha]

Bryant,

 

You shouldn't receive the registration card as that stays in Japan. You should be able to contact the NBTHK to verify the papers - they have a unique number.

 

If the sword wasn't de-registered it's not really a problem for you of itself. Check out the Nihonto Craft website as there's a guide to how the papers should look.

[bryantholland]

Bryant,

 

You shouldn't receive the registration card as that stays in Japan. You should be able to contact the NBTHK to verify the papers - they have a unique number.

 

If the sword wasn't de-registered it's not really a problem for you of itself. Check out the Nihonto Craft website as there's a guide to how the papers should look.

 

I understand that I wouldn't receive the original registration card; but most sellers (at least most of the ones I looked at) advertise that they'll include a photocopy of the card for overseas buyers.  And I was thinking that I could then contact the local prefectural registration board and use the info on the card to ask them if it had indeed been de-registered properly.

 

I'm not worried that anything bad would happen to me in any event; I was just more thinking that if the seller was exporting illegally, then I should be wary because maybe they'd be doing other things not above board -- like forging the NBTHK papers as well.

 

The advice of, "it was probably illegally exported, but don't worry about it" was... not what I was expecting, but honestly, it does put me a bit more at ease.  So thanks for that. 

 

And thanks for the warm intro to this community; looking forward to getting to know everyone better.

 

 

One more question, which I can (and will) search the archives for, but asking anyway for any recent info and experiences: the habaki looks like it might need to be replaced (or repaired?), and I'm thinking that I'd like to have a new, slightly longer tsuka made for it.  Does anyone have any particular recommendations for these services here in the US?

 

Close-ups of the habaki: http://imgur.com/a/XUvJt

 

Thanks again.

 

 

 -Bryant

[tokashikibob]

Congrats!  Nice sword!

[Taz575]

I used Wally Hostetter recently for a new habaki, seppa, new tsuka core, new full same wrap and new ito wrap with the existing fuchi/kashira/menuki and I am very pleased with his work, price and turn around time. Pics are in the Heianjo Ishido Masatoshi post in the Nihonto Section.

[Brian]

I understand that I wouldn't receive the original registration card; but most sellers (at least most of the ones I looked at) advertise that they'll include a photocopy of the card for overseas buyers.  And I was thinking that I could then contact the local prefectural registration board and use the info on the card to ask them if it had indeed been de-registered properly.

That's a boat that doesn't need rocking.

Perhaps someone in Japan can tell us if the deregistration process can be started before a new owner is known? Or without knowing where it is going?

Anyways, you have the sword. i have no doubts the sword and papers are legit. Enjoy it and move forward.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Bryant,

Why do you need a longer tsuka?  Are you planning to use this for martial art?  (Not a good idea).  Replacing the tsuka replaces part of the sword's history; are you sure that makes sense?  You could replace the habaki but, again, may not be a good idea.  Why not enjoy it for what it is until you know more, and then you'll have a better idea what, if any, changes to make?

Grey

[estcrh]

I understand that I wouldn't receive the original registration card; but most sellers (at least most of the ones I looked at) advertise that they'll include a photocopy of the card for overseas buyers.  And I was thinking that I could then contact the local prefectural registration board and use the info on the card to ask them if it had indeed been de-registered properly.

 

I'm not worried that anything bad would happen to me in any event; I was just more thinking that if the seller was exporting illegally, then I should be wary because maybe they'd be doing other things not above board -- like forging the NBTHK papers as well. -Bryant

Bryant, you are over thinking this, ignore the registration card completely, over the years I have recieve quite a few original cards along with the sword I purchased, I never gave it a second thought. I really doubt that the papers were forged, especially at the price you paid. Now you have learned a lesson, ask for advice BEFORE purchasing.

[estcrh]

Hi Bryant,

Why do you need a longer tsuka?  Are you planning to use this for martial art?  (Not a good idea).  Replacing the tsuka replaces part of the sword's history; are you sure that makes sense?  You could replace the habaki but, again, may not be a good idea.  Why not enjoy it for what it is until you know more, and then you'll have a better idea what, if any, changes to make?

Grey

Grey, I guess he could have a completely new tuska made and still have the old one, of course it would take a complete set of fittings but it is possible.

[Taz575]

Many swords like this have modern put together koshirae and are very sloppily fit.  A loose habaki may scratch an otherwise nice polish, too.  A shirasaya and habaki may be a better option and get a tsunagi made for the current koshirae.  I know I don't like it when I am showing a koshirae to someone and the fit is loose and wobbly!  

[Stephen]

lets see what he gets first.

[bryantholland]

Bryant, you are over thinking this, ignore the registration card completely, over the years I have recieve quite a few original cards along with the sword I purchased, I never gave it a second thought. I really doubt that the papers were forged, especially at the price you paid. Now you have learned a lesson, ask for advice BEFORE purchasing.

 

I couldn't ask for this particular advice before purchasing; I couldn't know he would ship immediately until after I had actually paid for it...    And even his own listing information in the auction stated that he wouldn't ship for two weeks due to de-registration.

 

And I did search this forum for his username (and others I was considering, such as showa22...).

 

But yes, message taken about not worrying any more about the registration issue.  Thanks all!

[bryantholland]

Hi Bryant,

Why do you need a longer tsuka?  Are you planning to use this for martial art?  (Not a good idea).  Replacing the tsuka replaces part of the sword's history; are you sure that makes sense?  You could replace the habaki but, again, may not be a good idea.  Why not enjoy it for what it is until you know more, and then you'll have a better idea what, if any, changes to make?

Grey

 

To me, part of the beauty and elegance of the Japanese sword is that the plant and animal portions of it can be replaced as needed, while the metal parts are maintained and re-used on down through the centuries.   I feel like part of good stewardship is to maintain the sword in a usable condition -- while not actually using it.

 

I'm not in a rush, though.  And don't worry, I'm not going to be dragging this sword back and forth to the dojo or cutting tatami with it... 

[Grey Doffin]

One reason why I asked, Bryant, is that beginners are often very anxious to spend even more money on their new swords.  They buy and then they want to polish and paper and have koshirae built and lord knows what then.  Quite often this makes little artistic or financial sense.  Go slow.

Grey

[seattle1]

Bryant:

 It seems that the consensus is that you don't have a legal problem or an obligation to go into the reasons for this or that further, however I believe it is a good idea to get a copy of the torokusho (registration certificate) last with the sword. It could be an initial registration done in Showa 26 or 27, or if renewed later it might indicate the original earlier date. I have noticed in recent years that the NBTHK will sometimes make a notation on their origami of the registration data. The reason such information might, and it is only "might!", indicate with an early 26 or 27 year that the sword had come from a large private collection or an institution, as when the registration requirement came into force there was some rationing of registration access as all could not be done at once. Or the blade may have come out of some farmer's barn rafters too, so perhaps there is potentially value adding info, and perhaps not.

 Arnold F.

[bryantholland]

Just to follow up and close out the story of this sword, if anyone's interested: I received the sword on Friday, and the blade is just lovely.  There are a few more ware than I noticed in the photos.  I'm not sure if this was because of, shall we say, artful use of the digital camera and photoshop, or if I just didn't pay close enough attention.  But it's nothing beyond the pale; like I said, it's lovely.

 

The tsuka (including the ito and same) is in better condition than I expected; I may keep it for a while rather than have a new one built -- still not sure.

 

It was shipped pretty poorly -- just bubble-wrap inside a cardboard box.  Cheapo $300 Chinese swords ship in halfway-decent wooden boxes, and even $40 beaters ship with form-fitting hard foam inside the cardboard; maybe expecting a nice wooden box was unrealistic, but I would hope that for $2k+, I would get something better than bubble-wrap...  Nonetheless, it doesn't appear to have been damaged in shipping.

 

My only real disappointment was called by Taz575 -- the tsuba has a ridiculously sloppy fit.  It's not just a little bit of play; it slides wildly all over the place with no resistance at all.  The tsuba appears (to my untrained eye) to be legitimately old, but it seems equally clear that it wasn't original to this sword.  Oh well; I'll find someone to add sekigane to fit it to the blade.

 

The saya also rattles a bit.  The habaki and the koiguchi make a good firm fit, but the blade slaps inside a bit.

 

All in all, I'm pleased. 

 

Again, thanks everyone for the advice and the intro to this community.

 

 

 - Bryant

[Shugyosha]

Hi Bryant,

 

Unfortunately it's not unusual for some dealers to assemble koshirae from items that were not original to the sword and which accounts for the sloppy fit of the tsuba. 

 

Likewise the photographs chosen to sell the sword tend to emphasise the good parts rather than reveal factors that might put off a buyer but kitae ware are weird things and can show up differently depending on the light - I've expressed reservations about an issue that really stood out in a photograph only to find it insignifcant when viewed in person.

 

Anyhow, I'm glad you like your new sword and hope that you continue to enjoy your new obsession hobby.

 

Best,

John

[Stephen]

John 

 

Glad its safe and somewhat sound, leather is your friend till you decide what you want to do with it, (id find a tsuba that you desire), 

http://www.aoijapan.com/how-to-make-leather-seppa

you can also cut a small wedge of leather and make a temp sekigane,

Enjoy your adventure. 

[Taz575]

Bryant, many hardware stores sell gasket material in different thickness' and material.  You could make some seppa and a sekigane wedge with these materials pretty easily at home with an exacto knife and cutting board.

 

Now that you have the sword in hand, go back and look at the pics and video and compare them to what you see.  You can see how lighting, white balance, etc effect the photos and what the defects look like under those conditions, especially ware, which can look horrible in pics and be barely visibly in hand, or worse in hand!

 

Cardboard tube or box with the sword wrapped in bubble warp is how I received all of mine, too. 

[paul griff]

Hello,

Nice sword..As Stephen pointed out leather is the way,trim it nicely and it will feel like a different sword....Also make sure the peg ( mekugi ) is a tight fit even if you have to make a new one..I have to do quite regular for a friend who imports swords from Japan just as you have...

Regards,

Paul...