Senior Civil Forestry Official's Dirk Or Dagger

[Ed Hicks]

Senior Civil Forestry Official's Dirk or Dagger

[SwordGuyJoe]

I don't know much about these. What makes this a civil forestry dirk? No sarcasm, just hoping to learn something.

[Stephen]

looks brand new

[Johnny Barracuda]

It does indeed. It looks like a modern high quality reproduction. Alternately it could have been was re-gilded and the same changed (or artificial). 

[Stephen]

Well then still make them for current navy cadets so i wasnt thinking reproduction

[Stephen]

[Stephen]

 

So why not a new one for Senior Civil Forestry Official's Dirk?

[Johnny Barracuda]

The modern naval cadet dirks are comparable to the modern naval parade swords: the saya is always leather-covered and never same-covered.

 

If you look at the attached link, at 2:15 you will see an officer with the current dress sword (yes, this is a JMSDF fashion show! You really have to watch it to believe it!). It is vitulally identical to the old one, down to the sword knot. But the saya is always leather-covered. See also the attached picture.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRXA1mVk7HU

 

Furthermore, since the official use of dress weapons is very limited in nowadays' Japanese armed forces, I would be very surprised if civil forestry officials would get any.

[lonely panet]

so could you say its be restored

[Bruce Pennington]

Any reason not to consider that it could just be in perfect condition because it sat in a shop during the war, or in someone's desk?

[Geoffrey Ward]

The complex situation involving these types of daggers is that there is so little information available.From my quest to answer this question I have run into quite a can of worms because most of the information is speculative.I think the answer will ultimately lie in the design on the metal fittings themselves such as the number of blossoms leaves and tendrils/buds.This photo is considered to be a Naval Cadets Dagger I have Highlighted some of the features for reference.

[Geoffrey Ward]

Here is a dagger I recently acquired from a good friend of mine which is also considered to belong to the forestry genre of daggers which closely resembles an illustration in the Fuller and Gregory book Japanese Military and Civil Swords and Dirks there are however,differences with the main one being a curved saya. Of note is the design on the back strap which has no retaining screw and the number of grip segments.Any theories or information would be appreciated.

 

[Geoffrey Ward]

Here is a photo from the late Ken Banks book Japanese Pattern Dirks The Banks Collection listed as "Senior Foresters Dirk (Ministry)-Second Pattern (1903)

 

 

 

[Johnny Barracuda]

Bruce Pennington, on 01 Jul 2016 - 01:52 AM, said:

Any reason not to consider that it could just be in perfect condition because it sat in a shop during the war, or in someone's desk?

 

# Bruce: And also during the last 70 years. If it was the case, the aging of both the gilt and the same would have been slowed. However, in my experience, even very well protected from light and wear, gilt tends to become paler with age and leather tends to darken. Unless of course it is solid gold!

 

# Geoffrey: the naval dirk with a backstrap would be the first type (1873). From 1883, the backstrap was suppressed on naval dirks. However, the design was retained for some civilian administrative bodies, including forestry administration. The same happened with the naval flag rank sword: it was abolished for the Navy in 1914, but its hilt design was retained for higher ranks in colonial administration. These civilian administration dirks and Swords, apart from some specific floral ornaments that you pointed out, are virtually identical to the original early naval patterns from which they originate.

[Kai-Gunto]

I seen gilding on swords that was over 100 years in great condition. It depends on the quality and the way it was done.

[Johnny Barracuda]

Certainly, but you are talking about high-quality swords that were fire-gilded using mercury, which was extremely efficient, albeit lethal to the craftsmen. Using this process, you can have old swords whose gilt remains quasi-perfect and very shiny.

 

On ordinary pièces, such as this one, electrical guilding would have been used. It is cheaper, healthier and efficient. The downside: it is not a durable as the mercury process and the gilding becomes less shiny when it ages, even kept from the sun.

[Geoffrey Ward]

Just for reference I am including a photo of the saya for the dirk I posted earlier it is made of wood and deliberately made with a curved contour.

 

Regards,Geoff

[Ed Hicks]

A couple of interesting observations have been posted. The dagger I posted has not been refinished, is not a fanciful reproduction and I believe it is just an exceptional example of a pre 1945 dirk. I have not seen a reproduction of this model or any repro military daggers that approach the quality. This my opinion based on my research and experience, of course. I've owned many WWII era swords and daggers in better condition than this one. For comparison if anyone has seen a portion of Mike Quigley's collection you'll find many mint military mounts of the highest quality and near new condition. Ed

[paul griff]

Hello,

Looks like a superb cared for example to me...There's plenty of German daggers out there in similar condition so why not Japanese ? I'd buy it !

Regards,

Paul.

[Kai-Gunto]

I have only seen very bad attemps in copying Japanese navy dirks. All from China.

The are very easy to spot.

 

On that looks okay far away, is this one made in Japan. It does have made in Japan stamped on the seppa near habaki.

Close look and it stinks too, not ugly like does from China but newish and plastic like.

It has 2 spun wires on handle, it schould have been 1 spun and 2 straight.

[brannow]

I have owned many of these over the years and the one that started the thread look like a minty original to me.  I also think Geoff's is a nice original.   As Thomas mentioned there are many found in fine condition with all the gilding intact!  Condition has nothing to do with age and all to do with care and storage.  when judging these you have to look at quality and natural patina.  The last one posted is an example of the lack of quality the new ones have.