Settsu no kami Minamoto Muneyoshi

[Bugyotsuji]

A bit of a puzzle here. I bought a shirasaya katana some time back of length 2,2,2,2, with the name Minamoto 源　Muneyoshi. 宗吉　The torokusho is quite an early one. Everyone I showed it to said the mei must be a gimei. The characters look pretty poor to me. Then the Banto of our local shop said hang on a minute, the rust looks genuine, let's send it off for shinsa at the Nittoho. It passed with Hozon paperwork saying that it was a Kanbun katana by Minamoto Miyoshi of Settsu. (One reference work I have also says that he was Settsu no kami).

 

This swordsmith does not seem to be listed on your website here, unless he is the Kanbun Harima smith listed. I contacted Darcy to see if the list should be updated, and he said I was well placed in Japan to solve the mystery. I am wondering what my next step is as I've searched the web and the usual Japanese sword bibles in sword shops and come up with nothing fresh.

 

I know that an early Munetada name was Muneyoshi and in an ideal world I would hope that it might be an early example of his, denoting the beginnings of the Shinto sword era, but obviously this is aiming way too high. :lol:

At the moment I am happy just owning it and glad that it has the Hozon status.

[John A Stuart]

Hi Piers, There are two shinto smiths listed among Muneyoshi in the Toko Taikan. Here are scans, might lead somewhere. John

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks for that John. I'll read them now. I was trying to post a PS a while back but the site went down? I'll just stick it here as I kept a copy, luckily as it took a while to write. So while you look at this I will be back reading your post!

 

...PS Minamoto 源 Muneyoshi 宗吉 is not mentioned specifically in the Token Yoran 刀剣要覧, but he is listed in the Toko Soran 刀工総覧on p 609, where it says, as on the Hozon paperwork, Kanbun goro; below his name, 常陸守宗重門. This means that his master was Hitachi no Kami, Muneshige, ie that he studied at his school under him, or he was of that school?

 

For his possible master, of two listed Muneshiges, one has strong connections with Hitachi, Settsu and Harima and is said to be Kanbun goro. His title is Settsu-ju Hitachi Daijo Muneshige, Hitachi no Kami tomo, Hongoku Harima, Osaka Sukehiro Mon, Kanbun goro. 摂津住常陸大掾宗重、常陸守とも、本国播磨、大阪助広門　There is a two-line mention of this Muneshige in the Token Yoran on p 109 where it says he also struck Nanbantetsu, some kind of foreign steel? His swords are/have been worth around 7 mill JPY according to this book.

[Bugyotsuji]

John, you are too respectful! Your material is for Koto. Except the first which is probably Shinshinto. At the bottom of p 631 there is a row of Koto Muneyoshis; on the left you can see the first Muneyoshi of Shinto, so I suspect he may be on the next page!!!

[John A Stuart]

Hi Piers, Yes just the one shinto on pg 631 and on the following page is the little scan of just text for the other shinto smith of the two listed. The only other info is the reference to Harima, Kanbun 1661 but no oshigata or list of various mei. The Toko Soran seems to have led in a better direction, John

[Bugyotsuji]

Hi Piers, Yes just the one shinto on pg 631 and on the following page is the little scan of just text for the other shinto smith of the two listed. The only other info is the reference to Harima, Kanbun 1661 but no oshigata or list of various mei. The Toko Soran seems to have led in a better direction, John

 

Actually those Miyoshis along the bottom look very interesting, but if Nitto-ho say it's Kanbun I think we can reluctantly forget them.

 

...*****However, to hijack my own thread for a minute, the third one from the left in your book is interesting for a very different reason. Muneyoshi is listed as belonging to the Jumyou family, 寿命族. I have owned a rather nice iron Wakizashi tsuba for over a year with the Mei of Jumyo on it. I have searched high and low for this name in Tsuba books, and now suddenly there it is! Jumyo made swords!!! Could my tsuba possibly have been made by one of them? 寿命The Mei is brushed on in gold. Could it be attributed, then? The tsuba is quite thick, though...

[John A Stuart]

Actually Jumyo is my favourite school. I have collected a bit of info on this group. The 'Mune' kanji appears within the group as well the Toshinaga group. Thoughj how you can tell Toshinaga from Jumyo is still problematic for me.

 

Jumyo info here.

 

http://www.johnstuart.biz/new_page_15.htm

 

 

A Jumyo tsuba. This is rather a heavy plate for Tosho, unless I have attributed it wrong.

 

http://www.johnstuart.biz/new_page_11.htm

 

How does the mei compare?

John

[Bugyotsuji]

John, what an astonishing amount of information. Very good reading. I love your collection there.

 

As to the Mei, the Kanmuri on your various -myo all tend to widen out, I see. Mine is squished between the Nakago-ana and the Kozuka hitsu (although part of the left stroke may be missing), so it's long and thin.

The only strongly similar feature is the long final stroke down. I'll see if I can upload a piccie.

 

OK, got it. The iron is in daylight darker than in the picture; the thickness of the tsuba is not really apparent either. There is no other decoration at all; the Ura has the two hitsu outlined in fine gold as on the Omote.

 

The dealer who sold me this tsuba told me that he thought it was mid Edo.

[Bugyotsuji]

Update.

 

I now have an oshigata of a wakizashi by this Settsu/Osaka smith handed to me today by a friend! P.604 of a J. reference work. (I will need to get more details.)

Mei, 摂津住源宗吉 (Settsu-ju Minamoto Muneyoshi).

He did exist, and his work is typical early Shinto.

 

Now my katana feels as if it's back on the known map of the world. It has a relative somewhere: a wakizashi! I can believe the Hozon paperwork more easily now. This is a huge relief to me, even though another Japanese friend laughs at me for wanting tangible proof such as paperwork, lineage, etc. Now I feel like I am hot on the trail! for reading!

[John A Stuart]

The fun is in the quest. Great!!! John

[Bugyotsuji]

Thanks, John! I hope you had a brilliant time on your Japan trip. (Reading your posts I have no doubt you did.)

 

PS Looking again at this old thread, I have looked at yours and then reconsidered my Jumyo tsuba above, and now feel it may be genuine, even if an attribution Mei.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Piers,

 

don't know if it will make much difference but I'm wondering at your description of the "mei" on your Jumyo tsuba. It is hard to be absolute with seeing clearer images but I get the impression that the inscription is actually done in nunome-zogan, as is the gold outline to the hitsu-ana.

 

I'd also guess that the gold, both mei and decoration, is a later addition.

 

regards, Ford

[Bugyotsuji]

Hi Piers,

 

don't know if it will make much difference but I'm wondering at your description of the "mei" on your Jumyo tsuba. It is hard to be absolute with seeing clearer images but I get the impression that the inscription is actually done in nunome-zogan, as is the gold outline to the hitsu-ana.

 

I'd also guess that the gold, both mei and decoration, is a later addition.

 

regards, Ford

 

Ford, thanks for the comment. I will have a close look with a magnifying glass and report back.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

I have not seen this thread, but for those who can be interested by this smith:

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Hi,

 

I have not seen this thread, but for those who can be interested by this smith:

 

 

Jacques, this is the very page I was handed today!!! I have been looking for something like this for two years, (without investing heavily in serious books... hahahaha!) Where does this page come from, please? Also, is there any indication of where that wakizashi might be? In a museum or private ownership?

 

I am automatically interested, as I bought a sword about three years ago, and no-one could tell me anything about the smith or the sword... little by little it is now becoming clear.

 

PS Ford, I had a close look and the gold seems to be a series of Xs remaining in the iron. I think you are right!

[sencho]

Piers,

 

Not sure if you already checked this, but Hawley lists this smith:

 

Muneyoshi 宗吉 - Settsu - 1661 - 15 (points) - Student of Muneshige 宗重 - MUN683

 

攝津 国 源 宗吉 Settsu Kuni Minamoto Muneyoshi. Itame, Large Midare

 

攝州 住 源 宗吉 Sesshu ju Minamoto Muneyoshi

 

攝津 守 宗吉 Settsu no K. Muneyoshi

 

(I guess the "K." is kami.... right?) Interesting to note Hawley records the 2nd mei as "sesshu"

 

As you said 2 Muneshige's listed under settsu, one dated 1661 and one dated 1686 (MUN 397 / MUN 396)

 

I think the Muneshige you mention (MUN 396) was student of Tsuda Sukehiro (according to Hawley) and he says that he is listed in Toko Taikan page 617 and Shinto vol of Nihontoko Jiten page 196... he also signed "sesshu" at times (apparently)

 

5 Listed under Harima (1420, 1504, 1596, 1661, 1688)

 

You probably have been through all of this, but anyway, hope it helps...!!

 

Cheers!

[Jacques]

HI,

 

 

Jacques, this is the very page I was handed today!!! I have been looking for something like this for two years, (without investing heavily in serious books... hahahaha!) Where does this page come from, please? Also, is there any indication of where that wakizashi might be? In a museum or private ownership?

 

I am automatically interested, as I bought a sword about three years ago, and no-one could tell me anything about the smith or the sword... little by little it is now becoming clear.

 

PS Ford, I had a close look and the gold seems to be a series of Xs remaining in the iron. I think you are right!

 

Oshigata come from Kanzan Shinto Oshigata Dictionnary (which is an affordable book). But it doesn't contains more informations than those on the oshigata.

[Bugyotsuji]

Thank you for that, Jacques.

 

Thanks also for the long post by Sencho. No, I wasn't aware of all of that, and it makes very interesting reading. It will take a bit of time to digest, (looking through a glass darkly) but I am now in a far, far better postion to narrow this and maybe... pin it down. Brilliant work, guys.

[Bugyotsuji]

Re-reading this old thread I noticed in Sencho's quotes from Hawley above that it says "15 (points)". What do these 15 points refer to, I wonder? One article mentions that 120 on the H scale might be worth 10 million JPY today, or 90,000 US?

 

Edit. Just had a look around and discovered that 15 is not very good in his opinion. I bet he never actually saw one! :lol: My sword did get NTBHK Hozon status, but I am wondering whether to go now for Tokubetsu or not. :| Is there a glass ceiling, where all swords of a certain ranking are doomed from the start?

 

I mean, if his reputation was based on one Wakizashi, and I have an unknown katana here, could this in theory elevate his ranking if it's good enough?

 

Muneyoshi's master. I think the compass points to the earlier of the two Muneshige ie MUN683, (?) on the logical basis that this sword, made by his disciple Muneyoshi, is papered as Kanbun, 1661-1673. Would it not be usual to be working in overlapping times? Or am I overlooking something? In the Toko Soran, p609 it says Muneyoshi was "in the Mon é–€of Hitachi no Kami Muneshige, Kanbun".

[Bugyotsuji]

Quick follow-up. Showed this sword to a long-term expert and asked for anything that bubbled up in his mind, all the while apologizing profusely for the lack of manners in daring to ask him to trouble his mind by looking at something inferior. He calmly took it apart and gazed at it for a minute. What he could read from it was enlightening, for me at least.

 

He noticed a little play in the Habaki, and from there that the Machi had been Suriage by about a centimeter and a half. This would explain why no-one had seen the longer start of the Yaki, hidden under the Habaki. This must have led them to declare it as Kanbun, whereas in his mind it was not a Kanbun sword, but regardless of the amount of Sori, a later work to him, about Genroku, perhaps 1700 -ish. The blade has no evidence of actual use in warfare and very little Togi-beri, emphasizing a slightly younger version than the Kanbun Hozon paperwork.

 

I asked him why and when anyone would bother to Suriage this sword and he said probably around Bakumatsu when there was a fashion for longer Tsuka.

 

We discussed the possibility that this smith may have been the end of the line in this branch of swordsmiths, Tsuda Sukehiro - Muneshige - Miyoshi, especially in the light of a general decline for the need for Katana in this period. His name does seem to get chopped off at the bottom of the family tree! (It reminded me of discussions on how and why the Roman Empire might have ended.)

 

Anyway, for me this was a very beneficial exercise, regardless of the quality or merits, or lack thereof of the sword itself. It gave me a feel for this period Of Edo and I gained a much clearer reading of this sword's cultural and historical background.