Fake Type 95 Nco Swords

[JohnWB]

Thanks Bruce!  That’s exactly what I was looking for.  Wow, I would have immediately discounted that Nagoya as a fake from the shape of the bohi.  Now off to start learning stamps too 🤦‍♂️ lol.

 

I will say, even though I’ve only been researching for a couple weeks, and very little research on stamps yet, the stamps and serial number font on the one John posted are atrocious.  Not to mention the undefined tsuka and unevenly ground seppa.

[TimJ]

I saw this on another forum. My thoughts are: Stamps seem wrong. The ferrule should be black with the black tsuba. The latch looks off. Bohi is off. The numbers are upside down.

 

Am I wrong on this?

 

Thanks

[John C]

I'm not an expert, however it seems fake to me as well - the "grinder" style bohi; the dremel nagoya mark; the poorly faked fuchi stamps, etc.

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

14 hours ago, JohnWB said:

Thanks Bruce!  That’s exactly what I was looking for.  Wow, I would have immediately discounted that Nagoya as a fake from the shape of the bohi.  Now off to start learning stamps too 🤦‍♂️ lol.

 

I will say, even though I’ve only been researching for a couple weeks, and very little research on stamps yet, the stamps and serial number font on the one John posted are atrocious.  Not to mention the undefined tsuka and unevenly ground seppa.

Don't know if you've seen this or not, but a good reference for studying the stamps:

Stamps of the Japanese Sword in our Downloads section

 

Also, for Type 95s, Ohmura has the basics: 造兵廠の標識 An Arsenal trademark and inspection mark (ohmura-study.net)

[Bruce Pennington]

@BANGBANGSAN @Kiipu @Stegel @robinalexander

 

I'm calling in all experts on this one.

 

The bohi is right for a Nagoya blade.  The tsuka screw even has the set punch mark on the end, unusual for fakes.  The stamps are pretty darn good.  And, Tim, there are plenty of examples of 95s with steel tsuba and copper fuchi.  

 

Questionable - The Kokura stamp is offset internally, but @Shamsy has shown plenty of examples of Kokura stamp variations.  The NA on the blade serial number looks etched onto the blade.  I don't study the serial number fonts, so one of the other guys will have to comment.  But their orientation is correct for a Nagoya blade.  You read their numbers with the cutting edge up.

- The leather cover for the saya doesn't look like it was made for this sword, see all the wrinkles?  The tan color of the saya might be post-war Bubba, but Stegel needs to comment on that.  The serial number on the saya throat is on the wrong side for a Nagoya saya, however, with non-matching numbers, this could be a Tokyo saya mis-matched to the blade?  Guys like Thomas and Stegel that track numbers could say.

- There is a tell-tale sharp bend in the latch, common to fakes, but by itself, I wouldn't say definitively it's wrong.

 

I'm not completely convinced this is fake.  If it is, it's the best I've seen so far.

 

[Kiipu]

It looks good to me; however, Stegel will need to look at it to confirm the serial range and that the hardware is correct.

[BANGBANGSAN]

1 hour ago, Bruce Pennington said:

@BANGBANGSAN @Kiipu @Stegel @robinalexander

.  The serial number on the saya throat is on the wrong side for a Nagoya saya

 

Bruce

 

If you flip the photo, you will see that the serial number (名 36722 ) matches the number on the blade and is on the correct side. I agree with you, this one looks legit.

 

PS: According to Donald Barnes, #37118 has the same mark on the fuchi (岐 名 Cannonball)as this #36722 but features a brass tsuba.

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

@Bruce Pennington @Kiipu @Stegel @PNSSHOGUN

 

Check this out: is it an original handle with a Polish-made blade or the handle is a Polish(Reliced) repro as well?

 

 

[robinalexander]

HI Bruce, It really would  be good to see more clear pics of the tsuka, saya, kissaki and tsuba/seppa set-up (from an angle).  I know that's probably not possible which is a shame because it allows for increased speculation and less real observation/comment.

 

I am really no expert in comparison to others mentioned and bohi on 95's have always confused me somewhat but I would not buy it.

 

I really dont like the position and newish 'scratchiness' of the blade stamp...or the crispness and spacing of the blade number (is that number too low?).  Also dont like the fuchi stamps or the fuchi itself for that matter.

 

The tsuka screw does look good...but on what can be seen so far, I would still leave it in the shop.

[Stegel]

Just getting back to the sword @TimJ posted, i agree with everyone that this is a genuine Type 95 from the Nagoya Arsenal.

For Thomas, my records show this is almost in the middle of the Gifu range, so looks legit to me going by serial numbers.

The leather combat cover is in my opinion a post war addition from an officers type 98 sword, where the scabbard was clearly a little longer than the type 95 one.

It would be good to remove it and see the scabbard by itself, this colour paint , although not very common, has been seen before. Confirming it is original (paint or re-paint) would be interesting to find out.

[Stegel]

Trystan,

The S/n 35914 should be in the gifu range, Iijima was the previous range with the highest recorded at 35652.

I have Gifu records before this S/N and one 2 digits higher -see picture.

 

In my opinion it has been refitted at some point with another blade.

I tend to agree with your thoughts that it is a fake just by looking at it. If there are close ups of the S/N and Inspection Mark, it would be interesting to confirm with the font style used.

I cannot see the numbers clearly when close up.

 

I also think the tsuba edge profile is not correct and most likely tsuba was swapped with blade at same time.

[BANGBANGSAN]

18 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Check this out: is it an original handle with a Polish-made blade or the handle is a Polish(Reliced) repro as well?

 

 

 

 

@Stegel

 

Ernie, do you think the handle and fuchi are authentic, or do they appear to be replicas that have been artificially aged?

[vajo]

For me it look more fake than genuine.

 

the stamp looks scratched not stamped.

 

The nanako looks very low quality from the cast. The screw is thin. The fuchi had some lacquer ripples and the stamps are not really clear.

 

The bo-hi looks false and cheap.

 

 

 

[vajo]

Btw in the group are some Fake swords with mixed genuine parts from different members. I think there is something going on. Replacement parts on fake swords? 

 

That sword

 

with that tsuka

 

and that Kissaki?

[robinalexander]

4 hours ago, vajo said:

For me it look more fake than genuine

Well said Chris.

[Stegel]

Personally to me both handles and fuchi appear to be genuine, the one Chris showed seems to have been buffed removing the definition of the dimples.

Neither has the punch marked dimples which are telltale fake, just my opinion.

[Kiipu]

6 hours ago, vajo said:

名36722

the stamp looks scratched not stamped.

 

That is the way the 名 stamp appears on some Nagoya made Type 95s.  It is believed that they were stamped after hardening of the blade in oil.  I have seen many just like this before.

 

Furthermore, I stand behind Stegel's statement above.  When I have a Type 95 hardware question, Stegel, and no one else, is the person that I ask.  He has forgotten more than I will ever learn about these swords.

[montrealfan1986]

In general, if y'all were at a show or flea market or even looking online, what are the top 5 things you would look at in a type 95 to verify authenticity. I'd like to make an informational video that explains what to look for.  You all gave good advice for the replica I posted and I can compare it with my real one. 

 

Matthew

[Bruce Pennington]

On 1/14/2024 at 5:24 PM, montrealfan1986 said:

the top 5 things

Ok Matthew and all other rookies - Have a go at this one.  Tell me what's wrong.  BTW, it's for sale HERE.

1. 

 

2 & 3. 

 

4.

[Bruce Pennington]

4. 

 

And 5 (which is not present on this sword, but often seen)

 

 

Now you guys tell me what's wrong.

[JohnWB]

Hanger is too far down the saya, wrong font for the serial number, Tokyo stamp is too big by the serial number, bohi starts too far from the tsuba, stamps are too big and completely wrong on the fuchi, tsuka is not detailed enough, seppa is badly done and no dished cuts in the "petals", shouldn't be kanji on the blade. Only been at this for a little over a month but that is a bad one lol.

[Bruce Pennington]

14 minutes ago, JohnWB said:

Hanger is too far down the saya, wrong font for the serial number, Tokyo stamp is too big by the serial number, bohi starts too far from the tsuba, stamps are too big and completely wrong on the fuchi, tsuka is not detailed enough, seppa is badly done and no dished cuts in the "petals", shouldn't be kanji on the blade. Only been at this for a little over a month but that is a bad one lol.

Really good, John.  Missed a Biggie on items 2 & 3 photo.

[JohnWB]

Glad to hear it! More to learn! All I saw there was the bad font, bad stamp, and bohi starting too far from the habaki.  Ooooh, the numbers are turned the wrong way for a Tokyo blade.   Otherwise I await the correct answer.

[Bruce Pennington]

Reference the tan saya color of @TimJs post.  Here's on officer saya the same color.  Just unusual to see it on a 95.

[Bruce Pennington]

49 minutes ago, JohnWB said:

the numbers are turned the wrong way for a Tokyo blade.

That's the one!  Only Nagoya blades stamp the numbers with the cutting edge up.

[Bruce Pennington]

So to summarize the top 5 (not that these are always present, or the best signs)

1.  Overall look - As in the photo above, the bohi stands out as not being shaped right, starting too far down and ending too early

2.  A closer look at the bohi, most fakes go for Tokyo blades & stamps.  If so, then the start and end of the bohi should be shaped not tapered.  Nagoya blades, though, have tapered bohi.  This example was actually shaped (with a small blip of an error).

3.  Numbers - some guys are good at spotting proper font, I'm not, but it is clear when an attempted Tokyo blade has the numbers with the cutting edge up.  Only Nagoya blades are stamped that way.  Tokyo blades are read with cutting edge down.  Also, the fakers have a really hard time with the "TO" stamp by the serial numbers.

4.  Stamps on the fuchi.  Usually they are horrid.  The Polish fakes are getting quite good, but if you can get a clear shot of their Ijima stamp, the detail is usually not as crisp.

5.  Any writing on the blade?  Fake.  I have a very vague recollection of a 95 with a school graduation notation on the blade, but anytime you see stuff on a 95 blade, LOUD alarm bells should be going off.

[Bruce Pennington]

For those working to get better at telling the difference between the real and fake 95, here is a great presentation of a real Ijima/Tokyo gunto.  The pictures display all the key areas for ID purposes.  It's in Russian, but the pictures are all that matters.  One could save this link for future comparisons.

 

Type 95 Ijima/Tokyo Pictorial Example

[montrealfan1986]

On 1/19/2024 at 9:20 AM, Bruce Pennington said:

So to summarize the top 5 (not that these are always present, or the best signs)

1.  Overall look - As in the photo above, the bohi stands out as not being shaped right, starting too far down and ending too early

2.  A closer look at the bohi, most fakes go for Tokyo blades & stamps.  If so, then the start and end of the bohi should be shaped not tapered.  Nagoya blades, though, have tapered bohi.  This example was actually shaped (with a small blip of an error).

3.  Numbers - some guys are good at spotting proper font, I'm not, but it is clear when an attempted Tokyo blade has the numbers with the cutting edge up.  Only Nagoya blades are stamped that way.  Tokyo blades are read with cutting edge down.  Also, the fakers have a really hard time with the "TO" stamp by the serial numbers.

4.  Stamps on the fuchi.  Usually they are horrid.  The Polish fakes are getting quite good, but if you can get a clear shot of their Ijima stamp, the detail is usually not as crisp.

5.  Any writing on the blade?  Fake.  I have a very vague recollection of a 95 with a school graduation notation on the blade, but anytime you see stuff on a 95 blade, LOUD alarm bells should be going off.

Great insight, thank you

[dido]

[The Blacksmith]

That is possibly the poorest fake that I have so far seen! I do hope that it isn't yours Dido, unless you are collecting them, which can in itself be an interesting hobby.

 

I looked at one this afternoon, which I have been waiting to see for a couple of months. Alas, it was an obvious Chinese fake! Bo hi was wrong, the saya was wrong as was the retaining spring and the kissaki. A rather disappointing day all told!