Fake Type 95 Nco Swords

[IanS]

Thanks John,

Ian

[Bruce Pennington]

On 11/27/2023 at 3:25 PM, John C said:

Definitely. The vast majority use the pictured font. Check out the 3 and 5 particularly.

 

John C.

Nice, John!  I admit, the serial # font is something that has always just slipped by me.  After comparing the two, I can see what you mean, though.  Good eye.

[IanS]

My thanks to you too Bruce.

 

Thought I'd put up the auction house text.

 

"A Second World War Japanese NCO's Shin Gunto Katana, the 67.5cm machine made steel blade with a narrow fuller to each side, numbered 50123, with brass habaki and tsuba, the fuchi stamped with Kokura arsenal markings, with brown painted aluminium tsuka and spring clip, the green painted steel scabbard numbered 50123 at the mouth, 97cm"

 

Auction is on 6th December.

[Bruce Pennington]

That particular faker likes numbers in the 30000, 40000, and 50000 range.

[IanS]

A short update,

 

the auction house selling the fake type 95, serial 50123, has responded to me as follows,

 

"Dear Mr Scott,
Thank you for pointing that out, I will amend the description.

Kind regards"

 

they now describe it as a Chinese copy.  I have suggested they call it a replica.

[IanS]

 

On 12/1/2023 at 2:00 PM, IanS said:

A short update,

 

the auction house selling the fake type 95, serial 50123, has responded to me as follows,

 

"Dear Mr Scott,
Thank you for pointing that out, I will amend the description.

Kind regards"

 

they now describe it as a Chinese copy.  I have suggested they call it a replica.

 

The auction took place today, 6th December, '23, still described as Chinese.  It didn't sell, whether that was because nobody was interested or the auction house still kept the reserve on it, they had put a value of £400 to £500.

[Bruce Pennington]

Here's a fake copper at this Sofe Auction.  I've sent them a message, as I generally like their stuff.  Hopefully they will respond.

 

Didn't need to see more than 1 photo, but here's 2:

[IanS]

Good morning Bruce,

 

I can only tell from one photograph, that is the one with the serial number, it shouldn't have a preceding "0"  (zero) and the fuller is too long.  The habaki seems to have been hammered into the fuller.  I really must get acquainted with stampings!

I nearly bought a copper but there was damage to the blade, I'll upload some photos when I can.

[Bruce Pennington]

Got a nice reply from Sofe Auctions:

"Sofe Design Auctions has sent you a message

Hello Bruce, thank you for your input. will update listing in a bit after contacting consignor (it was "guaranteed to be original") Kind Regards, Sofe ---Original Message--- From : Pennington, Bruce (Invaluable) Sent: Dec 7, 2023, 11:54"

[IanS]

Excellent response.  You've saved another lot of somebody's hard earned cash.

 

Here are the photos I mentioned.

 

Could only get these three uploaded, will upload the others on following.

[IanS]

Could only get this one uploaded due to size of other.  this shows the damaged blade.

 

 

[IanS]

last one.

 

 

[Conway S]

@IanS I haven't seen fake copper NCOs that correctly replicated the early style saya as seen here. This one looks good from the photos. I would say it's legit. Note it was taken apart at some point and put together incorrectly because both seppa are in the front of the tsuba. 

 

Conway

[Bruce Pennington]

Agree with Conway

[John C]

Ditto.

 

John C.

[robinalexander]

Looks good to me.

[IanS]

Thanks for the feedback, I suspect it was taken apart to give it a good clean and polish.  I was going to bid for it but didn't like the damage to the side of the blade, such a pity as it has a nice low serial number too.  It went for £1400. a few days ago.

[Conway S]

@IanS With buyer's premium, taxes, and shipping you usually don't end up getting a good deal anyway. Plus with auctions or anytime you cannot inspect something in-hand you run the risk of getting surprised. My surprise once was a missing wood insert in the saya. The rattling from the metal on metal always drives me crazy!

 

Conway 

[IanS]

Hello Conway,

 

you're absolutely right, the premium is getting so high the buyer is getting fleeced.  When you take into account the seller's premium, the auction house is raking in the money and some of them misrepresent the items.  When they don't describe them, it's often a warning to look carefully.

 

Sorry to hear about your saya, now there's a challenge for you.

[Kiipu]

A reproduction Type 95 with a serial number stamped on the top edge of the blade!  Do not recall ever seeing this before.

New Collector ~ NCO Sword - Serial Number

[John C]

I know this type of fake has been posted before, however not for 125,000 dollars! Just an FYI to new folks not to believe everything you read.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/176072699289

 

John C.

[Stephen]

Wow what a crock rock.

Remove all zeros it's still to much 

[Brian]

Interested in his response when he is told.
May send a message too. I bet indignation and denial.

[The Blacksmith]

On 12/10/2023 at 4:00 PM, Conway S said:

 With buyer's premium, taxes, and shipping you usually don't end up getting a good deal anyway. 

 

Conway 

 

I bought a bayonet in the summer, the bayonet was thankfully cheap, then add 50% for commission and tax etc. Ok, so it was still cheap................. Then came the problem of getting it sent here.........

The auction house, in the Uk, couldn't, or wouldn't send weapons, even small bayonets. So, a packer had to be sought and I had about five quotes from firms recommended by the auction house. It eventually cost me £92 to get it collected, packed and sent to me, plus another £25 in customs, which was all told some £40 more than the bayonet and additional charges had originally cost me. But one of the packing agents wanted £294 to send the bayonet! 

In future I think I will definitely give auctions a miss, it isn't worth the hassle. I'd rather buy from dealers or other collectors. I do buy occassionally off Ebay, but no more auctions for me.

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks John,

He claims it was own by a Japanese General!  And he accepts no returns.

 

I sent him a message.  If he doesn't amend the sale, I'll report him (as if ebay cares, or will do anything).

[JohnWB]

I am sorry if this is a foolish question or if I misunderstood something in all of my reading.  I have been reading everything I can find from multiple sources (including the entirety of this message thread) to learn about identifying real vs fake/replica type 95's.  (I am also taking a page from your book and I'm filling up a reference folder on my computer of pictures of fake vs real 94's, 95's & 98's.)  I read some discussion somewhere in the middle of this message thread that there may be some examples of legitimate type 95 swords with a bohi that don't begin and/or end as cleanly and crisply as we expect to see on legitimate NCO swords, due to quality controls slipping from time to time.  The bohi seems to be one of the major indicators to easily identify fakes at a simple glance without having to look further.  Do any of you have an example where the sword is a known legitimate type 95, but with a less than stellar bohi beginning or ending?  I am curious and would love to see how far out of spec they got so that I know when to look further and when not to.  And if I misread that somewhere on here, I apologize for wasting your time, but I'm at least glad to nail it down concrete in my noggin.  Thank you all for the education I have been getting.  There is an unreal amount of knowledge concentrated here, and you have done us newcomers a great service by spreading your knowledge, especially as the fakes are getting better and better.

 

Second question, has anyone run across a fake/copy type 97 naval gunto or a type 3?  Haven't seen much discussion on fakes with an iron tsuba. I may need to start another reference folder if they're around too.  I feel like I have been sucked down a rabbit hole and there's no chance I'm climbing back out now lol.

 

-John

[John C]

As far as a "fake" kaigunto, not sure I have seen one (though I am sure others have). But look at the differences between an actual kaigunto and souvenir swords that are VERY often passed off as original kaigunto.

 

In addition, there are differences between iron tsuba. They look similar, however the souvenir version is larger than the type 3 version; whereas the kaigunto has rays on it.

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

10 hours ago, JohnWB said:

Do any of you have an example where the sword is a known legitimate type 95, but with a less than stellar bohi beginning or ending?

John,

You may have read a post or 2 of mine where I comment that the Nagoya Arsenal didn't seem to have quite as tight quality control as the Tokyo 1st Arsenal.  They still had good quality, you just see very slight variances that aren't as prevalent on Tokyo blades.  But, their bohi, or fuller groove was open-ended (for lack of better word) compared to the Tokyo bohi.  Here is an example of the Nagoya bohi:

 

Whereas, Tokyo bohi have a more distinct shape:

 

Now, having said that, I have actual examples from both arsenals of just the opposite.  But they are the exception, not the norm.

 

As to the other types - I have fake 19s, 95s, and 98s on file, but no kaigunto or Rinji seishiki (Type 3).  I believe I have seen fake kaigunto, but didn't think to file photos at the time.

[John C]

Has this been posted before? Note the bohi is cut correctly, however...

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/404570728906?hash=item5e324b69ca:g:hSgAAOSwutNlOCRI&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4GxONsz2BNSqFK0i9CJoVwADl8lBLhdjwJvBeazvW%2FKlrzxe3wejxQKP5AKkNbOX7QoC8IE2OBLY6zrvR4GghmoJAOH0dXmFzw2G1zwKfEUbjR9U6bmA4kTqQPhivhPdlsl%2FHFO0wfydGpJumc2MjnFyb3NkaIrIISSQLFedgU0gU%2F51Put%2B2PEFen160gRWUjHDzQrQOzmSezQd5uiP6Buk5hb%2F1%2BpHV6Az23Uc2v1i8%2BJCnF9Lrv8Q42vFxzZ7Jscmc6ThXTKNQiXuGHpvw%2BIFlZUOX%2FllRJbusCGZv4xN|tkp%3ABk9SR4DliNKeYw

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Ow, that hurts my eyes!