Fake Type 95 Nco Swords

[Mich]

37 minutes ago, Brian said:

Why are you preventing hot linking? We don't ban live links here, so what are we gaining?

Sorry - didn't want to get in poop....some forums frown on hot links.  I will edit and repair the link

[Stegel]

Nice original Black saya with grey overpaint, even some on the throat piece. 
strange way the drag fin was removed, I haven’t seen one like that before. 
Mich you should add this to the black scabbard thread as an original example in my opinion. There is no green or brown visible anywhere that I can see.

[Bruce Pennington]

10 hours ago, Mich said:

Saw this one on the ole ebay

 

The pictures on the retailer's business sight are a bit better quality compared to the ebay listing itself.

 

Japanese WWII Type 95 NCO Sword - Hero Outdoors

 

Mitch,

Not enough detailed photos to really say for sure, but with what we have, I don't see a problem with this one.

 

On another note - why don't we simply start new threads for swords we want evaluated.  This particular one is intended to highlight and expose the fakes.  Not a criticism, but I think the threads would better be served separately.  

[Shamsy]

I've been thinking of asking Brian to delete some of the posts here that aren't so much examples of fakes but requests for validity. On the mobile browser though, they are not numbered so not easy to pick.

[The Blacksmith]

For an aficionado of WWII period swords, this thread is absolutely fantastic, so thank you to all who have contributed to it! 

I collected shin Gunto swords many years ago, and thought that I knew a bit about them, but now  obviously not. Thankfully, it was in the late 70's , early 80's that I collected, so fakes were not such a big problem then. I will try and find the pictures and upload them of some of the swords that I owned. Amongst them was a copper handled Gun sho (?) katana, which I wish I had the number of. At the time, it cost me £65 ! If only........

But, my question is, I think that though many of the swords shown here wouldn't fool me (though some undoubtedly would! ), it has been mentioned several times about the Bo hi and the shape of the kissaki. I think, that I would know the difference, for the most part, with the shape of the bo hi at the habaki, but what about the kissaki end, and as has been mentioned several times, about the shape of the kissaki itself? If someone might be kind enough to post some pointers of the differences, and what to look out for, I would be extremely grateful.

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Russ

[John C]

3 hours ago, The Blacksmith said:

but what about the kissaki end,

Russ:

I am but a novice, however I can try to answer your question with an example. If you look at the example of the real sword kissaki, you will note the bo-hi ends in an "up turned" fashion and follows the lines of the boshi; whereas the fake just stops abruptly.  In addition, you can see on the real sword how the shape of the kissaki is like the quadrant of a circle (think about a circle with a cross drawn inside. One quadrant would be the shape of the kissaki). Conversely, the other is a very pointy shape (or could be too blunt, etc.).  Hope this helps.

John C.

[The Blacksmith]

Thank you for that John 

 

That was sort of as I expected.  I wonder if some of the copies now available perhaps have a bit more accurate kissaki and bo hi terminal.

Some of these copies are frighteningly good, though thankfully, they usually manage to get at least one detail slightly incorrect. For now...........

 

Russ

[Bruce Pennington]

The good example John showed was made by the Tokyo first arsenal. Unfortunately, the Nagoya blades have a soft ending on the bohi, which is easier to fake. But the fakers usually do it very poorly like his top example. They get the width of it wrong, they get the starting of that wrong, and they often get it placed improperly on the blade itself.

[Bruce Pennington]

A bad fake up for auction HERE.

[John C]

Wow. Ten bids for 32 dollars so far. Maybe they are hoping the tsuba is real.

John C.

[robinalexander]

7 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

A bad fake up for auction HERE.

 

Bruce @Bruce Pennington, I'm always intrigued by the way they advertise and describe these things.  In this case I was looking for a 'WW2 Style Japanese NCO Sword' but no such truth I'm afraid.  No description either.

 

However, unlike some auctioneers including Lloyds Aust. who guarantee every item in a complete auction or money back, the subject auction house states at Condition 4 .......... "4. All property is sold "AS IS" where is, with no warranties or guaranties unless otherwise stated."

 

Auction house is located in Wilbur Oregon and I had a laugh at that as it reminded me of 'Mr Ed' ......"hello Wilbur"  ........ but that has absolutely nothing to do with the post.

[Bruce Pennington]

Ha!  I needed a thumbs up & a laugh emoji for that.  One of my claims to fame is that I can sing the whole Mr. Ed song from start to finish!  I also know the Green Acres song.  Maybe I watched too much TV as a kid!

[robinalexander]

Oh dear ....current auction......

[robinalexander]

FOOTNOTE

 

The auction house will be referring to their specialist for review on Monday. So hopefully it will be pulled or severely re-descibed.

 

 

 

[John C]

Love that arsenal mark.

John C.

[Conway S]

I found this one on eBay today and did not want to create a new post just for this one. It looks like it was fitted with a late war blade, but I am wondering if the serial number is too low to be very late war. Given that the scabbard is matching, is it more likely the blade has been tampered with and bohi removed? The area forward of the habaki also looks a little weird. Interested to hear other's thoughts. Thanks.

 

https://www.ebay.com...er=artemis&media=SMS

 

Conway

 

 

[Kiipu]

Suya discontinued the blade fuller on the last production run and this serial number is within this range.  A little more than a thousand were made before production came to a stop in March/April 1945.

[Conway S]

Thomas, 

 

@Kiipu Suya never went to the black fuchi? 

 

Conway

[Bruce Pennington]

Photos added for future reference 

 

[Kiipu]

3 hours ago, Conway S said:

Suya never went to the black fuchi?

 

On the last production run from Suya, Iijima, & Kōbe, only copper-alloy ferrules were used.

[Conway S]

I appreciate the information, Thomas. I also found your previous thread " Type 95 Gunto Worksheet" very useful. 

 

It could be the angle of the picture, but to my eyes the shinogi/ridge looks a little crooked. The other side of the blade looks straight.

 

Conway 

 

[Baikal_95]

Hi All,

 

I have seen this Shin Gunto NCO type 95 type. And It looks fine to me but would like to get your second opinion.

I already got one Shin Gunto NCO type 95 and I saw difference between the one I have and this one, however as Shamsy raised in one of his post they are several makers an subcontractors so that you can find evidence of difference on several genuine Shin Gunto. I faced the same challenge with German Edge Weapon of WW2. 

 

The reason why I am guessing it's a genuine one:

1. Lijima sword factory stamp + Tokyo First Arsenal stamp + Kokura Arsenal stamp on the fuchi sounds ok to me.

2. The serial numbers on both the katana and the saya are matching and sounds good.

3. The serial numbers on the Katana are read with the cutting edge down which is matching with Tokyo First Arsenal blade.

4. The scabbard throat retention screw is on the reverse side as it should be for a Tokyo First Arsenal blade.

5. The menuki is positioned well at the top on the reverse side as it should be for a Tokyo First Arsenal blade.

6. The shape of the scabbard drag is matching the one on a Tokyo First Arsenal blade.

7. The simulated knot design is matching the Tokyo First Arsenal blade.

Everything look consistent and coherent but I am guessing the faker know it as well...

 

The reason why I am still questioning or I have some doubts and asking for your advice:

1.  The fuki is painted and doesn't seem to be in cupper as it should be. Difficult to see based on the picture.

2. Despite it looks like the "bubbles" to imitate the ray skin on the handle are concave, the quality looks poor to me. Especially in comparison to my Nagoya sword.

 

I am also adding the link where you should be able to see the picture with higher quality.

https://drouot.com/fr/l/22151249

 

I made a bet on it so if I can get your feedback asap than would help me to withdraw in case of negative opinion.

 

Thanks in advance for your support here.

 

Best Regards

[vajo]

Its a classic fake modell, made in india and sold worldwide.

[Baikal_95]

Thanks vajo. Could you give me some amunition? And explaination? That woud be rgeat.

[Baikal_95]

I would need them to withdraw. Thanks in advance.

[Brian]

There are NO genuine swords with the simulated rayskin as dents instead of bumps. At least that is my understanding.
That would be an immediate veto on any sword.

[Bruce Pennington]

An,

You're suspicions were well grounded.  The makers of these fakes are better than most at attempting to get the details right.  But they still don't have the stamps right.  Look at the fake Kokura compared to a real one, as well as the Tokyo inspector stamp.  Additionally, that inspector stamp on the blade looks like 3 fingers! Ha!

  

 

Another obvious flaw is the beginning of the bohi.  Neither Tokyo nor Nagoya have a taper at the start.  They should be distinct like this:

[John C]

5 hours ago, Baikal_95 said:

Despite it looks like the "bubbles" to imitate the ray skin on the handle are concave

An:

You are correct. The "skin" should look like this; small and uniform.

John C.

[Baikal_95]

Thanks all for your confirmation. I was feeling something was not right.

 

Thanks a lot for your help here.

[vajo]

Real or not? It looks nice but i have the feeling that the Tsuka was replaced from a legit one. I think its fake. If it is fake its the first one i see with a positive samegawa.

 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/354934769791