Using Alcohol On Swords

[lonely panet]

Hi guys,

 

has any tried using ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL 99.5% to clean old oil off polished blades. Im unable to get mitsumi.

 

is this a suitable replacement?

 

regards H

[Derek]

For polished blades, only a wipe with a microdear or other micro fiber should be fine. The next step up would be denatured alcohol, as close to 100 pct as you can find. I remember we had a conversation on here a while ago about the details. If I remember correctly, isopropyl has a lot more water than denatured. And there are many types of denatured concentrations, so check out the Msds facts online.

[SAS]

It is possible to freeze out the water from alcohol, resulting in nearly pure alcohol.

[lonely panet]

is methylated spirits ok then.

[Shugyosha]

I like mine with tonic water and a twist of lime.

[lonely panet]

im not sure if I would put the lime in, that would just overpower the metho goodness in the flavour    

[ROKUJURO]

Any organic solvent like alcohol (diethyl alcohol) and related substances like denaturated alcohol, isopropylic alcohol, petrol (not the one used in motors but pure medical petrol!), ether, or acetone would be fine as long as there is no water contained. Some of these mentioned do not mix with water, so they are water-free by nature.

All these solvents can be used to remove oil or oil residue, but they are not identical in their respective effects. As an example, glue residue from self-adhesive tape requires something like petrol as alcohol wil not work in a satisfying manner.

Some of these substances are dangerous to your health, so working with nitrile gloves and in an open space (if at all) is advisable. 

The use of these aggressive solvents should only be considered on blades which are heavily soiled with chemical substances like paint, used industrial oil, tar, or resinous plant oil. In all normal cases (= blades in healthy condition or polished) a little bit of CHOJI oil will clean the blade sufficiently.

At least, this is my experience. 

     

[seattle1]

Hello:

 Like many things related to Japanese swords, what seems unimportant might be just the opposite. I have in the past used isopropyl alcohol to remove oil as an alternative to multiple applications of uchiko. (Lets not get into the uchiko/microfiber issue please.) I then found that when a Kleenex is used on the blade as a last cleaning stroke when the alcohol is long gone, that the coefficient of kinetic friction, ie, the Kleenex "drags" more, is increased noticeably  in comparison with when all oil seems to be, at least visually, removed with uchiko. I do not know if the use of microfiber would yield the same result. The bottom line is: could a micro layer of residual oil left on a sword reduce the coefficient of friction and therefore increase cutting efficiency?  That would obviously have implications for modern cutting uses for Nihonto just as it would in historical times.

 Arnold F.

[John A Stuart]

It sounds logical to assume so. John

[ROKUJURO]

could a micro layer of residual oil left on a sword reduce the coefficient of friction and therefore increase cutting efficiency?.....

Theoretically, yes, but in practice, this will be a very small fraction of a percent.

 

To reduce friction considerably, moving/turning machine parts (like in a bearing system) "float" on a thin layer of oil, but this has to be considerably thicker than what remains on a cleaned NIHONTO. To be efficient in a way to prevent metal-on-metal friction, the layer of lubricant has to be either viscous enough to allow this "floating" (with low rp/m) or it has to be under a relatively high pressure, e.g. by an oil pump, as in a motor with high rp/m. This requires a low viscosity.

 

So, in TAMESHIGIRI, I think you would have to soak your blade in oil before a stroke. Not sure the bystanders would appreciate that.....

 

In SEPPUKU, the assistant was using water to enhance the cutting performance. 

[Stephen]

Too many want to bugger with their swords, your oil cant be that old, leave cleaners to old cruddy swords as stated above. Nothing wrong with spending a evening with your prize, if it has so much oil on it that you cant see hada ect, then your keeping it over oiled. a light film is all thats needed, no need to uchiko unless polish is poor and your bringing out the hada. View enjoy sugata at arms length 

no need to feel the need to clean.

[seattle1]

Hello Jean and Stephen:

 My observation was hardly experimental in any controlled sense, but it was physically obvious that the drag on the Kleenex was noticeably less after oil was removed than when the isopropyl had been used. The statement referred to direction of effect, not degree of effect, and it might, just might, be a significant factor in cutting efficiency. It would take a real experiment to know how strong that effect is, and perhaps what some other variables, like jihada type and polish finish might contribute to the issue, to say nothing of many other variables.

 I do not keep swords in oil except for a short period after a professional  polish, and I use the best polishers I can get access to. The only other use of oil is after returning from a show when the blade's surface might be exposed to who knows what, and it was from that that the observations above were made.

 Arnold F.

[Stephen]

10 4 to that...my post was in no way directed to yours.

[Daso]

Any organic solvent like alcohol (diethyl alcohol) and related substances like denaturated alcohol, isopropylic alcohol, petrol (not the one used in motors but pure medical petrol!), ether, or acetone would be fine as long as there is no water contained. Some of these mentioned do not mix with water, so they are water-free by nature.

 

All these solvents can be used to remove oil or oil residue, but they are not identical in their respective effects. As an example, glue residue from self-adhesive tape requires something like petrol as alcohol wil not work in a satisfying manner.

 

Some of these substances are dangerous to your health, so working with nitrile gloves and in an open space (if at all) is advisable. 

 

The use of these aggressive solvents should only be considered on blades which are heavily soiled with chemical substances like paint, used industrial oil, tar, or resinous plant oil. In all normal cases (= blades in healthy condition or polished) a little bit of CHOJI oil will clean the blade sufficiently.

 

At least, this is my experience. 

 

     

Rokujuro, 

I had posted this in a separate thread and sorry to hijack this one, but you mention alcohol does not work well on glue residue from tape.  I am not sure and no-one is whether these dots which appeared after some work to my blade tip are either tape residue or micro abrasions possible from shipping.  You can see blade and close up.  I want to really see if this is some kind of abrasion in finish or residue but repeated attempts with alcohol and a microfiber cloth remain unsuccessful.  What kind of petrol does on use to try and could this damage a nicely polished blade.  Thanks, Darius

[Brian]

If alcohol didn't remove them, then they are not coming off. Some kinda staining on the surface. I really wouldn't worry about it. They are so small, nothing to stress over. Later get a polisher to touch it up...that they can do.

[ROKUJURO]

......What kind of petrol does one use to try, and could this damage a nicely polished blade?.....

Darius,

 

as I wrote, it is the type of petrol used in clinics or medical offices to remove the residue of adhesive plaster. You can buy it in pharma stores. Ether will do the same job. Of course, none of these will damage a steel object.

 

Adhesive tape is indeed used by polishers, but not directly on a blade. They wrap a blade in paper first and then fix it with adhesive tape (or, more traditional, with a textile ribbon). 

 

It is really difficult to judge, but In this case I assume that the spots are small stains. Imagine someone in the customs sneezing over your blade.....

 

As Brian said: Let a polisher go over it with his HAZUYA, and it will be gone. 

[Daso]

Darius,

 

as I wrote, it is the type of petrol used in clinics or medical offices to remove the residue of adhesive plaster. You can buy it in pharma stores. Ether will do the same job. Of course, none of these will damage a steel object.

 

Adhesive tape is indeed used by polishers, but not directly on a blade. They wrap a blade in paper first and then fix it with adhesive tape (or, more traditional, with a textile ribbon). 

 

It is really difficult to judge, but In this case I assume that the spots are small stains. Imagine someone in the customs sneezing over your blade.....

 

As Brian said: Let a polisher go over it with his HAZUYA, and it will be gone. 

Thanks Jean

[AndreasU]

Any organic solvent like alcohol (diethyl alcohol) and related substances like denaturated alcohol, isopropylic alcohol, petrol (not the one used in motors but pure medical petrol!), ether, or acetone would be fine as long as there is no water contained. Some of these mentioned do not mix with water, so they are water-free by nature.

 

     

 

Just to correct this one as it may leads to the impression that there is "water free" alcohol available. This in 99.9% is not possible as Alcohol is Hygrophobic and will, sooner or later, absorb water from the surrounding air. So any isopropyl you can get for medical use, is OK to go as it contains some +95% of pure alcohol and the rest is desaturated water. As long you will not leave the sword four hours after such a cleaning, it will have no effect at all. Even the "poor quality" Tamahagane will not corrode that fast. For preservation I am using a slight wipe with machine oil (sewer machines) so that there is barely a film visible. 

 

The nice smelling oil wich sometimes is used on blades (original Japanese choji oil) is the worst you can use. To be honest, it was used in Japan because there was no better alternative available some hundred years ago and stayed for "traditional" reasons and now more for mystic ones.... a light machine oil preserves any steel better than this Japanese choji oil can do as choji oil it still contains acid.

[Guido]

The nice smelling oil wich sometimes is used on blades (original Japanese choji oil) is the worst you can use. To be honest, it was used in Japan because there was no better alternative available some hundred years ago and stayed for "traditional" reasons and now more for mystic ones.... a light machine oil preserves any steel better than this Japanese choji oil can do as choji oil it still contains acid.

 

Although I completely agree that nowadays light mineral oil is the better choice – for a variety of reasons – I doubt that the acidity of the so called chōji-abura will do any harm to a blade. Chōji-abura is actually camellia oil with only a few drops of clove oil added (because of the eugenol the latter contains, which has antimicrobial and antifungal properties).

 

Camellia oil contains mostly oleic acid (as high or higher than olive oil itself, up to 83%). The acidity of clove oil is 10.19 pKa (thank you, Mr. Google), but since it’s diluted about 1:100 by the camellia oil, there shouldn’t be any harmful acidity level to speak of in sword oil.

[w.y.chan]

Traditional Japanese tool oil is "tsubaki" which is oil of camelia and are yellow in colour.

I believe the yellow oil Fujishiro sells are camelia along with their higher quality white mineral oil.

Problem with plant oil is that it tend to attract moisture much more than mineral oil that can result in more chance of rusting on a blade if you live in damp climate.

 

Wah

[AndreasU]

Right, I can tell you that I had once Choji oil and putted it on one of my older blades. The oil itself was yellowish. After just one day, it turned into a slight red color and the blade went darker straight forward. Luckily I did see it early enough so I could clean the entire blade with cleaning gasoline. Keisho polish for free.....

Since this experience I do stay with light machine oil. Easy to have access to and constant quality.

[ROKUJURO]

Andreas,

pure diethyl alcohol is not 'hygrophobic' but hygroscopic (just the opposite). 
Any diluted alcohol will contain distilled or de-mineralized water (not 'desaturated').

Concerning your CHOJI oil: Do not mistake the etheric clove oil (ätherisches Nelkenöl) that you can buy in a pharmacist shop for the Japanese CHOJI ABURA! As mentioned, this latter is often Camellia oil with a small amount of CHOJI oil for a fragrance effect! 

The corrosion of low-alloy carbon steel is mainly related to the carbon content of it, so even the best TAMAHAGANE is likely to be attacked by rust. 

And finally: any grease or oil will contain 'acids' - even your butter on your morning toast! 

 

Just to correct this one as it may leads to the impression that there is "water free" alcohol available. This in 99.9% is not possible as Alcohol is hygrophobic and will, sooner or later, absorb water from the surrounding air. So any isopropyl you can get for medical use, is OK to go as it contains some +95% of pure alcohol and the rest is desaturated water. As long you will not leave the sword for hours after such a cleaning, it will have no effect at all. Even the "poor quality" Tamahagane will not corrode that fast...... 

 

The nice smelling oil wich sometimes is used on blades (original Japanese choji oil) is the worst you can use. To be honest, it was used in Japan because there was no better alternative available some hundred years ago and stayed for "traditional" reasons and now more for mystic ones.... a light machine oil preserves any steel better than this Japanese choji oil can do as choji oil it still contains acid.