Please Help Identify Tsuba

[johnnyi]

Hello Gentleman,

 

This is a tsuba I acquired a couple years ago from AoiJapan which had been tentatively described as Owari. Since then under 60x magnification I've found that it is made in two parts, the center leaf apparently pressed into the outer rim.

Tsuba measures:

68mm tall

65mm wide

5.8mm rim 

5.2 center leaf

 

The reverse by the small hitsu-ana shows forging of an exposed  layer, and the central leaf shows  quite a few "iron bones", less so on the rim. The iron seems very hard. The "joinery" of the two elements is tight, only visible as two under magnification as mentioned.

 

I am very inexperienced in tsuba, but was wondering are "two piece" tsuba unusual, and could this one possibly be Ono?

 

Thanks,  Sincerely, Johnnyi    (John)  

 

 

 

 

 

[hxv]

Johnny,

 

For what it's worth,

Owari is also the first thing I think of.

 

Hoanh

[johnnyi]

Thank you Hoanh.  Why I wonder(ed) Ono was because the tsuba was made in two parts which are so tight as to appear to be a single piece of iron. I thought maybe it was an attempt to mimic  an Owari  tsuba  (edit: or Yagyu?), as from what I've read, Ono tsuba makers were "forgers"??  I know too little  . Are such two piece tsuba researchable, for despite a lot of looking I can't find them?

 

Thanks again, John

[christianmalterre]

-what indicator you do have that your´s Tsuba may ben produced in 2 parts?

 

-is the central ita plate slightly loose and mooving ?

 

-are there any signs of a fixing of the ita ben visible on 12,3,6 and 9 (plugs drilled and fixed visible on outside mimi)?

 

-is there a indication ?

 

-maybe different colouration of the iron/patina on these points, where a fixation may ben have occured? (as the outside mimi wall obviously got overworked by filing/grinding)

 

-is there a difference in the entire colouration between ita and mimi ? (best way would be to compare this under direct sunshine and glasses )

 

-differences in tagene ? (even slightest )

 

-differences in the iron itself ?

 

-exact same thickness of Ita and Mimi ?

 

this thematics in a 2 piece/ brick construction seems me least to say-

 

very strange......

 

 

 

Christian

[Kurikata]

Hi John,

 

looks like a Tokei (Clock gear) Tsuba to me (http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/Owari3.html). It is a design used quite frequently by Owari school.

 

Cheers

[Brian]

Would love to hear Ford's opinion on possible 2 piece construction.

[Ford Hallam]

Hey Brian, in my opinion this is a straightforward one piece tsuba

[johnnyi]

Thank you all. Ford, in a few hours when I return I will attempt some scans which might blow up better than my limited camera lens. Here are a couple more picture attempts, but not up to speed I'm afraid.  You will notice shadow; that is deep recess separating two elements. Notice also in the pictures that the inner oak leaf is not set at a uniform depth within the rim, but is a bit askew (yet askew in a way that the plain of the leaf is flat, not random depth here or there, suggesting (showing) it was fitted in the rim a bit rudely. 

 

I will attempt when I return some scans which may blow up better that show two distinct elements tightly fitted, but with visible gaps, . Once more, thank you.

 

John

[Ford Hallam]

John, yes, I had assumed you'd interpreted that recessed line as indicating a joint.

 

I think it's the chased line the maker made when the design was marked out, possibly redefined once the centre area was chiselled down to lower it slightly compared to the rim. It's a pretty standard process and in evidence on many pierced and chiselled steel tsuba.

 

It seems to me also, in the two full images of the tsuba you initially posted, that the grain of the steel follows from the body to the rim indicating a single plate, to my eyes anyway.

 

Making a tsuba like this from two pieces is simply inefficient in both in terms time and materials/fuel. A two piece construction is also weaker.

 

So those two indented lines are not enough to convince me. Perhaps there's more to see....but I don't see a mystery yet.

[Alex A]

Hi John,

 

looks like a Tokei (Clock gear) Tsuba to me (http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/Owari3.html). It is a design used quite frequently by Owari school.

 

Cheers

 

Similar design here http://www.aoijapan.com/tsuba-mumeiunsigned-clock-openwork%E3%80%80

 

and another  http://www.aoijapan.com/tsubamumeiunsigned-clock-openwork-design

 

and another http://www.aoijapan.com/tsuba-mumei-the-watch-gear

[johnnyi]

Thank you Ford, I've attempted scans, however the depth of the leaf being below the rim makes the image of the joint fuzzy and useless. If you see a continuation of the metal structure then that is pretty good proof as far as I'm concerned,  As an aside, for an extremely crude looking tsuba it must have taken a very high degree of skill to manipulate tools around the upper-most meeting of the tip of the leaf and the rim.. 

 

As it stands, there is the illusion of a deep connection of two pieces  which has been acknowledged by those who've seen it through a microscope. Your explanation however, explains it I think, for extremely deep chasing marks would form what look like cavernous  pockets  if the lines were roughly burnished  over by even dragging a pin along them, which I'm sure must have been done in this tsuba's lifetime. What I don't understand yet is why such an illusion of a gap exists on one  of the  the inside walls where the post holding the leaf meets the rim but until I can get some useful images of it the issue is dead I think. 

 

So is this in fact an early Owari or later?  Thanks once gain for the tremendous help!  John

[johnnyi]

Similar design here http://www.aoijapan.com/tsuba-mumeiunsigned-clock-openwork%E3%80%80

Thanks Alex, It is something I've investigated, but in the end I believe the "clock gear" is the bag a lot of these get thrown into simply because they have denticles.

I believe this is a leaf, perhapsn a species of Japanese oak, said to be a symbol of strength. There are other  example of this species of leaf or ones quite like it on tsuba (though maybe not s crude). For instance Shibui Sword website has a Ko Shoami 438366 that is similar and there are other, both single leaf and quadrafoil.  The leaves are in one direction, tapering from large to small, of a number consistent with the oak leaf, and perhaps from a period before  the "clock gear" tsuba became fashionable. Just my take, and I may be very wrong. Thanks, John

[Alex A]

I see your point John

[rkg]

John,

 

I've been going down the rabbit hole of using a stereo microscope to study/image fittings lately (gotta love finding a zeiss standard 14 with perfect optics at the thrift store cheep (and it even had a 2.5X objective - perfect for studying tosogu :-)) , but I digress).

 

What do you have hooked to your microscope for image capture? I finally just got what amounts to a tube to mount up a DSLR which works surprisingly well - the expensive adapter with optics in it that I got first had all sorts of issues (blurry outside of the center, huge amount of chromatic aberrations, etc).

 

FWIW, you can tip the piece slightly so you are looking into the feature/cut/? and then do a focus stacked composite image (if you haven't tried this before, you can use combinezp or photoshop to put the images together - kinda boring to do the "shoot, twist the stage height knob, repeat" thing, but..).

 

On the theme, usually the tokei is (more or less) symmetric, so I'd buy your leaf interpretation. 

 

As an aside, I just heard a new interpretation to the tokei shape - that it represents the segments inside of a sliced fruit.

 

As to what it is, to me it kind of has a later feel to it, when the various groups were starting to copy each other, so you may never get a definitive answer outside of "owari"......

 

Best,

 

rkg

(Richard George)

Thank you Ford, I've attempted scans, however the depth of the leaf being below the rim makes the image of the joint fuzzy and useless. If you see a continuation of the metal structure then that is pretty good proof as far as I'm concerned,  As an aside, for an extremely crude looking tsuba it must have taken a very high degree of skill to manipulate tools around the upper-most meeting of the tip of the leaf and the rim.. 

 

As it stands, there is the illusion of a deep connection of two pieces  which has been acknowledged by those who've seen it through a microscope. Your explanation however, explains it I think, for extremely deep chasing marks would form what look like cavernous  pockets  if the lines were roughly burnished  over by even dragging a pin along them, which I'm sure must have been done in this tsuba's lifetime. What I don't understand yet is why such an illusion of a gap exists on one  of the  the inside walls where the post holding the leaf meets the rim but until I can get some useful images of it the issue is dead I think. 

 

So is this in fact an early Owari or later?  Thanks once gain for the tremendous help!  John

[johnnyi]

Thanks Richard, but this photography stuff  is out of my league. Your name came to mind though, and should frustration get the better of me I'll be calling, but as it stands now, I think Ford's explanations seem to fit really well.

 

Funny about the shapes we try to interpret. I was trying to research one of Kissaki's wonderful Umetada "peach" tsuba he has for sale (signed)  thinking perhaps it was actually an umi (plum). I stumbled upon a cross section of an asian pear (symbol of triumph) which looks so much like many five petaled flowers. we often see.

 

regards,  John

[Kurikata]

 

 

The leaves are in one direction, tapering from large to small, of a number consistent with the oak leaf, and perhaps from a period before  the "clock gear" tsuba became fashionable

 

John,

 

I am not a "clock" specialist but clock gear (escapement) are "one direction". I really continue to think that your tsuba is an "Escpament" interpretation.  But as usual  I might be wrong and you are probably in the right direction with the Oak leaf

 

 

[rkg]

And then just to add to the fun, here's a Jesuit symbol:

 

'

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)