Police Saber With Family Blade?

[FletchSan]

Hi All,

 

I picked this up quite cheaply as I thought it would go nicely with my kyu gunto - though I dont have it in hand so cannot take any better photos just yet. I'll take some more when I receive it next week. The seller could not remove the tsuka so I will try to remove it carefully when I receive it to have a look at the nakago.

 

It looks like a police saber though with a traditionally made blade? I've done a lot of searching for police sabers and they all have similar blades that look machine made and very different to this one.

 

What do you think - were family blades ever used in police sabers? Is that what it is or is it an early navy kyu gunto?

 

thanks,

 

Ben

[tesscoothome123]

Hi Ben, I have seen a couple with traditional blades over the years. This one I had found interesting the first time it was listed(was backup bidder and brought more than what it sold for last night). Did not bid because it was a couple week period before it reappeared for a second time at auction. My thoughts was it was returned, I hope the handle was not removed for you and you might get a nice surprise. Regards, John

[FletchSan]

Interesting - I hadn't seen it listed before. It looks in decent shape from the photos at least so hopefully it was just a non payer vs a problem. I guess i'll find out soon enough!

[Kai-Gunto]

Civil sword.

 

Sakura mekugi and pommel has to be removed for takeing it apart.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 6/4/2016 at 3:22 PM, Kai-Gunto said:

Civil sword.

Sakura mekugi and pommel has to be removed for takeing it apart.

Thomas, the civil/police/naval prison patrol swords are an area I've never studied, so forgive the long post, but I'm interested in learning! As I understand it, the police were part of the civil rank structure, correct? This sword does seem to fit the pattern of police swords in Dawson's book, yet it has an unusual floral pattern on the backstrap, and doesn't seem to have any of the police badges.

 

I've also never seen this style backstrap without the "ears" and the blossom set apart on the handle. Dawson has a forestry dirk (pg 181) with a seperated blossom. Dawson, pg 367, also has a Manchukuoan sword with a similar backstrap, and in the description, Dawson says this pattern "shares its basic design with the swords authorized for Japanese patrolmen and sergeants and with the swords authorized for Japnese naval prison guards and shore patrol sailors."

 

So this sword does seem to lean toward a policeman sword, but I'm curious about the lack of actual police badge.

[FletchSan]

Here is a better view of the floral design on the handle. I couldn't find any examples either with a sakura mekugi and most seem to have a single ashi vs double on the saya.

 

This is probably the most similar one I have found which also has a mekugi and double ashi though it is described as a Navy Kyu Gunto presumably because of the anchor motif.

http://www.genuine-antique-swords.com/swords/gunto/gu0026-navalkyugunto/navalkyugunto.htm

 

Are there any good references online for civil swords?

 

re: the blade - if it is a traditionally made one which I assume it may be based on the shape and hamon I guess they may have had to modify the nakago to fit? I figure that the bottom screw would screw into the nakago if it is required to be removed along with the mekugi to free the blade.

[lonely panet]

either way, its a nice example of a meiji military sword. I was bidding aswell.

 

the saya looks like it was never plated either, so that's a interesting point. any luck with getting the tsuka off without damaging anything?

[FletchSan]

Its on its way - should have it by the end of the week and will update with new pics and hopefully a removed tsuka.

 

Is the floral mekugi a cover on a regular bamboo peg or would it be a two piece screw that I would need to undo?

 

cheers,

 

Ben

[lonely panet]

most likely a threaded, take care as some times they are stubborn and being brass damage very easly

[Johnny Barracuda]

Hello,

 

I do not see any police insignia either. Is there one on the pommel? Also, the pommel decoration seems a separate piece. If it is, to disassemble the sword, you will have to check whether the pommel piece is also a bolt/nut assembly retaining the blade in the pommel in addition to the mekugi fitting. I have seen some examples on early to mid-Meiji era swords, which have both a mekugi and a pommel threaded assembly systems.

 

I such case, the nakago would have been both shortened and threaded.

 

As for the civil or military nature of police during the Imperial era, both existed, due to the large number of police services. Civilian police was part of the civil administration (e.g. Tokyo Metropolitan Police, Tokko high police, colonial police, etc.), and military police was attached to the various branches of the military (Kempeitai Army Police, Tokkeitai Navy Police, etc).

 

For this sword, I would concur on its civilian nature.

[FletchSan]

It does have a removable pommel as can be seen in this pic. I assume that it is very likely the nakago was altered with the end threaded. Looks pretty rare - though I've found a couple of examples of this done during the Meiji era I to fit the western style fittings.

 

So... what is the current collectors view on this? Does it devalue the sword as a nihonto or is it considered part of the history and therefore interesting? I'm guessing the former

 

Ben

 

[Johnny Barracuda]

The pommel design is the usual cherry blossom instead of the police insignia. Therefore it may not be a police sword.

[FletchSan]

What other civil authorities were allowed to carry swords other than the police juring the Meiji period?

[Johnny Barracuda]

Colonial administration, for a start, but their Swords were different from yours.

[FletchSan]

The sword arrived today and its even better in hand. It's in great condition and all original and everything fits together beautifully.

 

As expected the nakago was heavily modified to fit which looks to be an older family blade. Love the hamon.

 

There is some kanji underneath the number 29 stamped on the guard - any ideas? I wonder if this could help identify the type of sword or administration it was associated with.

 

Thoughts on the blade? I'm sure most would say what a shame about the nakago - though given its period and part of the sword history I think it is interesting personally.

 

cheers,

 

Ben

[Stephen]

Seen a lot worse weld for bolt thread, done well in fact, love the hamon, maybe not worth a polish but days of uchiko should produce some satisfaction. 

[Kai-Gunto]

Be aware of the fuchi. Shown in photos the fuchi is turned upside down. This also affect the joint between the backstrap. Cus the made a little slot for backstrap tap.

Theres also a rim on the fuchi and its design is matched with the backstrap rim design.

I have seen this wrongly mounted fuchi many times and in books.

[FletchSan]

Thanks Thomas, I'll have a look. Any clues as to whether it is police or not from the writing on the guard where the number 29 is stamped?

 

cheers,

 

Ben

[Johnny Barracuda]

As previously said, it does not bear any police insignia, therefore it should have belonged to another civil administrative institution.

[lonely panet]

just to be the devils advocate, how many petals does the cherry blossom on a Kyu gunto company grade dress sword have? 

 

ans how many petals does a police dress sword have?