New Article About Christian Tsuba

[SalaMarcos]

Dear members,

Few day ago, the Asahi shinbun published an intersting article about kakure kirishitan tsuba, you can read in the link below:

 

http://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/AJ201605200004.html

 

Hope you enjoy it.

 

[Kevin Adams]

"The Sawada Miki Kinenkan museum said they were believed to be used by Christians who practiced their faith in secrecy even after anti-Christian measures were instituted in Japan. "

 

No link to a primary document, no research, no evidence.

 

It's a lovely bit of press for an exhibition though - but not much else.

[Ford Hallam]

It became popular in the Edo Period (1603-1867) for swordsmiths to engrave their names on guards. But the discovered sword guards do not bear the creators’ names, indicating that those who made them were also hidden Christians.

 

 

Japanese tosogu scholarship....critical thinking not required.

 

 

“A characteristic of sword guards made after anti-Christian measures were taken is that Christians carefully hid crosses in their designs,” Nakanishi said. “We concluded the designs show the faith of hidden Christians.”

 

 

So carefully hidden we can see them clearly today.

 

Defying the Shogunate and professing the illegal faith would result in the death of one's family and self, by crucifixion or burning alive,  and the confiscation of all the family's property. I can't imagine such a risk would be courted by wearing such obvious signals on one's swords.

Do these theorists think the Shogunate was blind or just utterly ignorant?

[Thierry BERNARD]

 

Meanwhile, Yukihiro Ohashi, a history professor at Waseda University who studies the history of Christianity in Japan, pointed out it is too early to conclude that all the sword guards were owned by hidden Christians.

“We can say the sword guard that has a statue of Jesus Christ inside it belonged to a hidden Christian, but others need to be carefully examined before confirming that they belonged to Christians,” he said.

 

which means : we don't know anything!!

Edited June 1, 2016 by Thierry BERNARD

[Ford Hallam]

So if I found this hidden in a tsuba I was restoring there'd be no question.

 

 

I'm not saying I did find HIM in a tsuba... Buddy Jesus patron Deity of hammers.

[manfrommagnum]

Ford,

 

You should be careful not to judge other cultures by your own standards. In the 1500's in Japan the number of Catholics was well over 300000. Omura Sumitada and Otomo Sorin paid the price for being Christian, including one of them losing their domain and many samurai did die for thier faith. This also included many men, women, and children who were tortured and buried alive for not rejecting their faith. Christianity was in Japan for over 100 years before it was fully pushed out and under ground. I am very surprised that someone who has been involved in this activity for so long was unaware of this. There are several books written on this subject.

 

While there were many samurai and commoners that lived for generations after the various edicts in the domain of of Arima Harunobu; many of the tsuba were likely made between 1540 and 1584. To this day most Japanese have zero idea what christian symbolism looks like (and they have the benefit of the internet). While it is my opinion that some of the tsuba were unlikely hidden Christian and more like Christian of the 1500s, they were no less Christian and likely passed it down in hidden symbols based on what hardships they were willing to endure. It would not be difficult to hide the symbols from the Buddhists. Half of Japan new nothing of Christianity.

[Guido]

Ford,

You should be careful not to judge other cultures by your own standards.

Yeah, we all know that Ford is pretty ignorant of other cultures, especially the Japanese. To be on the safe side - and *really* make your case - you also should call him a racist.

[Steve Waszak]

Michael,

 

I am quite certain that Ford is well aware of Christian history in Japan.  I think Ford's point had to do with the hopelessly sloppy critical thinking employed by some theorists/scholars in reaching the conclusions they do regarding the presence of Christian iconography in tsuba design.  While there are some tsuba from the latter 16th century I am quite confident employ such iconography, far too many guards from this or later eras are interpreted to do so.  Just as a quick example, I have a piece on the sales page currently (an Owari guard) which features a big, bold "cross" as its dominant design element/motif.  Is this, then, a Christian tsuba?  No, it isn't.  I think what Ford is saying is that much too often, highly dubious conclusions are drawn, using even more dubious critical inquiry.  Needless to say, I would agree.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[SalaMarcos]

It's also difficult to me accept some of this tsuba as a christian tsuba.

Recently, in other post, some members talked about the tokei ji sukashi design as one of the kakure kirishitan motifs.

I've never saw like that, in my opinion is more like a fashion of gaijin objects... but indeed it's intersting read all the coments.

About the article, maybe the 10 tsuba from Sengoku jidai could be christian, as well during Alessandro Valignano and Luis Sotelo influence, the christianity in Japan, not only grew a lot but was also fashionable.

But for other Edo jidai design... well it could be some inaka mono tsuba of some kakure kirishitan, but I also think that it could be diffiult say something like this without proves.

[Ford Hallam]

Ford,

 

You should be careful not to judge other cultures by your own standards. In the 1500's in Japan the number of Catholics was well over 300000. Omura Sumitada and Otomo Sorin paid the price for being Christian, including one of them losing their domain and many samurai did die for thier faith. This also included many men, women, and children who were tortured and buried alive for not rejecting their faith. Christianity was in Japan for over 100 years before it was fully pushed out and under ground. I am very surprised that someone who has been involved in this activity for so long was unaware of this. There are several books written on this subject.

 

While there were many samurai and commoners that lived for generations after the various edicts in the domain of of Arima Harunobu; many of the tsuba were likely made between 1540 and 1584. To this day most Japanese have zero idea what christian symbolism looks like (and they have the benefit of the internet). While it is my opinion that some of the tsuba were unlikely hidden Christian and more like Christian of the 1500s, they were no less Christian and likely passed it down in hidden symbols based on what hardships they were willing to endure. It would not be difficult to hide the symbols from the Buddhists. Half of Japan new nothing of Christianity.

 

Michael

 

thank you for the quick history lesson. You actually made my point for me rather well.

 

The tsuba we're discussing are mostly Edo period, ie; post 1600, when Christianity was officially illegal. Persecutions starting in the late 1590's and lasting about 40 years. What I was saying was that any Samurai after that point would be unlikely to be wandering around with an obvious badge such as is suggested here. And while you may claim that much of Japan didn't know a lot about Christian iconography you can be sure that the officials of the government did and made sure that 'their eyes', their officials and informers, everywhere knew too.

 

As for judging a culture by my standards, I think you miss the point. When it comes to reasoned thinking and proper research there are no cultural variables. Evidential requirements are the same everywhere in the world of academia.

 

In fact, the first extract I ridiculed requires no knowledge of the subject at all to confidently mock. The glaring flaw in the claim ought to be self evident.

 

It became popular in the Edo Period (1603-1867) for swordsmiths to engrave their names on guards. But the discovered sword guards do not bear the creators’ names, indicating that those who made them were also hidden Christians.

 

 

[Brian]

 

But the discovered sword guards do not bear the creators’ names, indicating that those who made them were also hidden Christians.

 

....Like the burglar who had his fingerprints surgically removed....

[manfrommagnum]

Ford,

 

I agree with your assertion that since they did not sign their name does not mean they were hidden Christians.

 

However, your assertion that people would not be wearing the sword guards or that there were no christian samurai with sword guards at that time would be equally unsubstantiated. Many years after the edict there were christians and even catholic priests in Japan. They were not found out because of their tsuba or even their religious objects in their possession. Rather they were found out because Caucasians were found hiding in their homes, as with the incident in Goto in the 1600s. And while the government had several events over a 50+ year span to try to stamp out Christian followers, there is plenty of evidence that it was ineffective and produced varied results.

results at best. That is my point. They could have been using them and it is equally likely that they were as they were not. Granted, what they posted was not scholarly, which i also agree with.

[Ford Hallam]

Michael,

 

well I'm somewhat relieved you now seem to acknowledge that I'm not a complete ignoramus with regard to Japan's history.

 

....your assertion that people would not be wearing the sword guards or that there were no christian samurai with sword guards at that time would be equally unsubstantiated

 

 

 

And that's totally ok with me.

 

If you want to insist on the opposite then the burden of proof rests with you.  We must start with Japan being pre-Christian....that is the historical and objective reality. Now, if you, or anyone else, wants to suggest any degree of Christian influence you must provide clear and convincing evidence of this situation. We do actually know quite a lot in this respect so the historical record is pretty reliable.  However, samurai walking around in the 17th century sporting poorly disguised Christian/ death penalties  isn't something I've found any reference to in my social studies of Edo period Japan. And that is essentially what I'm talking about.

 

Show evidence of Edo period warrior class people in public with such obvious Christian iconography and I'll eat my tabi.

 

If these are secret Christian symbols how is it we, after a couple of hundred years and a universe of cultural divide, are so able to see them as Christian symbols?

 

We see what we want to see.....the biggest danger to objectivity.

[manfrommagnum]

Would you accept historical accounts of the westerners during and after Admiral Perry's arrival? I can see if I can find that stuff again. It referenced historical accounts of Christians coming out of the woodwork and finding communities of Christians. Not sure how many were Samurai or former ruling class.

[Marius]

I cannot quite understand this fascination with "hidden Christian symbols". Almost every case of a cross in tsuba or kodogu (except maybe for the well known Shimazu mon) will be advertised as "Christian". Seems to justify a higher price. I have found twelve crests which could be seen as "Christian".

 

 

 

 

[Jean]

Agreed at 100% with Mariusz. And as it was said above, a lot of tsuba if not the majority were not signed in Edo period.

[Ford Hallam]

Would you accept historical accounts of the westerners during and after Admiral Perry's arrival? I can see if I can find that stuff again. It referenced historical accounts of Christians coming out of the woodwork and finding communities of Christians. Not sure how many were Samurai or former ruling class.

Michael

 

 

I am well aware of the history of Christianity in Japan, that there were 'hidden Christians' is not in question at all.

 

The point I'm making is that I don't believe Samurai, or anyone else for that matter, were wandering around in what was essentially a military dictatorship bearing badges that could so easily identify them as adherents of the foreign faith and therefore a threat to the shogunate.

 

The problem the Shogunate had with Catholicism was that they realised that any Lord who converted to that faith then owed their allegiance to the Christian God or, more to the point, to His representative on earth, the Pope in Rome. In theory a member of the Samurai class owed their loyalty first to the Emperor, then the Shogun and then their own domain Lord. Allegiances to outside political forces, and the Holy Roman Empire was merely a continuation of the older Roman Empire in many respects, were seen as a very serious threat to the ruling order. Everything the Shogunate did was to maintain its control and authority. As far as the Shogunate were concerned Catholicism was a very real and direct threat to national stability and security. This being the political reality of Edo period Japan I find the romantic notion that Samurai followers of Jesus or Layola so obviously and blatently advertised their disloyalty to the state to be unsubstantiated.

 

In fact one might imagine that the Shogunate might have approved of such an obvious way of identifying subversive samurai, so that they and their families could be rounded up and eliminated.

[Brian]

To emphasize Ford's and everyone's point...no-one is disputing the Christian history of Japan, or the fact that there were "hidden" Christians, both Samurai and otherwise.

The question only pertains to how accurate any claims of symbolism are when it comes to tosogu. Why would someone wear a hidden badge showing his faith, as if he needed to prove to others that he really was a Christian on call? Do secret Christians in very strict Muslim countries wear hidden crosses? Not sure they would have felt the need to do this. And who were these tsuba makers that were operating under the gun..so to speak, making these tsuba? You would have had to have had a secret list of tsuba makers who were prepared to make something that was banned.

So where are the hidden Christian kodogu artists?

[SalaMarcos]

Another thing that we must advice is the importance of the dandysm in Edo jidai.

Maybe some christian things or christian symbols was desmistyfied and they become to use as fashionable motif.

 

On the other way, I was at the kakure kirishitan Shimabara jô museum, and they exhibits some christian objects. Except the hiden-slide doors kamidana like ninja stuff, it was very difficult to me distinguish which image is christian and which is an amida representation. So maybe this kind of hidden symbols exist, but I'm quite sure that noone can tell 100% that such thing is christian or not.

 

Christian tsuba was made on the Edo jidai? Sure, as the late Dr. John Lissenden teach us, there was nanban tsuba made in China or in Dejima with chistian cross, for presents to Dejima traders, or for present to dutch traders from the VOC. But I don't think this is what the article want show...

[Henry Wilson]

I think the question lies in whether tsuba were made specifically to represent a Christian theme or did particular patterns become popular with Christianity for reasons such as convenience, preference etc. There does not seem to be a Christian tsuba tradition of tosogu even though certain tsuba categories are regarded to have a tendency towards Christian motifs.

 

Charles Sanders Pierce wrote

"a 'symbol' is a sign whose special

significance or fitness to represent just what it

does represent lies in nothing but the very fact

of there being a habit, disposition, or other

effective general rule that it will be so

interpreted"

 

In others words, if it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck it can only be one thing depending on what you think. These tsuba as they stand can represent Christianity if you want them to and I think there is nothing wrong with that. The question is were they being made to cater for a Christian believers market or just a popular non referential, non symbolic style that became a choice of an (enlighten) minority?

[Ford Hallam]

I think the question lies in whether tsuba were made specifically to represent a Christian theme or did particular patterns become popular with Christianity for reasons such as convenience, preference etc. There does not seem to be a Christian tsuba tradition of tosogu even though certain tsuba categories are regarded to have a tendency towards Christian motifs.

 

Charles Sanders Pierce wrote

"a 'symbol' is a sign whose special

significance or fitness to represent just what it

does represent lies in nothing but the very fact

of there being a habit, disposition, or other

effective general rule that it will be so

interpreted"

 

In others words, if it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck it can only be one thing depending on what you think. These tsuba as they stand can represent Christianity if you want them to and I think there is nothing wrong with that. The question is were they being made to cater for a Christian believers market or just a popular non referential, non symbolic style that became a choice of an (enlighten) minority?

 

I can sympathise with the general thrust of your post, Henry, but I have to make a hard delineation at the point where you suggest; "These tsuba as they stand can represent Christianity if you want them to and I think there is nothing wrong with that."

 

From any sort of academic or objective point of view this suggestion is problematic. What it suggests is that whatever anyone feels something represents is ok. This completely undermines and makes meaningless any sort of objective research.

[Henry Wilson]

I can see your point Ford.  Maybe I am too loose as "whatever anyone feels something represents is ok." is exactly what I think as far as abstract motifs in tsuba are concern.    I don't think my subjective bearing makes objective research meaningless as I am open to objective research as a way to develop my subjective preferences. 

 

Also, I honestly don't think there is such thing as objective research.  What the research element of my MSc has taught me is that all research has a certain bias in-built to some degree or other, starting from the very moment someone chooses an area to research.

[Ford Hallam]

Henry,

 

As far as abstract motifs go I'd probably agree with you but in this specific case, the whole Christian iconography issue, we looking at a significant cultural/historical phenomenon so it's important not to project preconceived ideas on to the subject without good evidence.

 

And yes, naturally there will always be a degree of bias in any research but one trusts that as we learn more and ideas rub up against each other we develop a more accurate and nuanced picture of the past.

[Jean]

Very interesting for people interested:

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaston_Bachelard

[Ford Hallam]

another thought provoking paper on objectivity in historical research here.

[Jean]

Thucydide vs Herodote

[Ford Hallam]

"So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand."

Thucydides

 

 

[Rich S]

While I agree there are obvious Christian tsuba. I do suspect that many of so called Christian tsuba with "hidden" motifs are basically the equilavent of seeing bunny rabbits in cloud formations. No disrepect intended to anyone.

Rich

[Thierry BERNARD]

secret disney admirer!

 

all these tsuba are unsigned!!

[Randy McCall]

In cultural anthropology there has been a long history of European explorers and researchers applying their preconceptions and biases as to what certain symbols from older cultures -- religious, military, cultural or "mystical"  -- meant.  In the sciences Confirmation Bias is something that has to be continually guarded against. Not to say this is what's going on here, but it's possibility which can't be discounted.

It would be an interesting study for someone to go back and examine pre-Christian-contact -- or at least pre-Christianity-becoming-widespread  -- mon and tsuba designs to see if some of the base patterns exhibited in the museum collection existed in kodogu prior to Christianity becoming well established.  Or even just in certain older schools of artistry, which -- one would think -- would have an influence in metal artistry as well. 

This would at least present a baseline of which designs might come from cultural heritage, and which from outside influences.