Saotome Tsuba

[Barrie B]

Hi all,

 

I have read (and I quote): '...during the flamboyancy of the Genroku era [1688 - 1703] a sumptuary law was passed by the Tokugawa Shogunate in Shotoku 4 [1714] prohibiting the mounting of kogai or kozuka on the katana, and limiting the size of tsuba to 2 sun 3 bu [3.36" /6.97cm]...'

 

The text does go on to say that: '… the exact wording of the Shogunate law regarding tsuba size has yet to be verified...'

 

Saotome Tsuba are known to be large, but I have a very large Saotome Tsuba (probably made from a man-hole cover) measuring 104mm x 102mm x 6.5mm and I am curious to know if these large tsuba were made before this law was passed, or - as I suspect, just in contravention to the law; If this law was in fact passed, or even policed..? Anyone have any true evidence? My Tsuba may pre-date 1714, but I doubt it..

 

 

I am curious to know if anyone has a similarly large (or larger) Saotome that they would like to share? 

 

Barrie.

[Thierry BERNARD]

one of mine

 

Dimension horizontal 9.7cm, vertical 10cm, 6mm thick of the ear part, weighs 173g.

[Thierry BERNARD]

Hi all,

 

I have read (and I quote): '...during the flamboyancy of the Genroku era [1688 - 1703] a sumptuary law was passed by the Tokugawa Shogunate in Shotoku 4 [1714] prohibiting the mounting of kogai or kozuka on the katana, and limiting the size of tsuba to 2 sun 3 bu [3.36" /6.97cm]...'

 

.....

Barrie.

 

6.97 cm seems to me very small for a katana tsuba!!!

[Stephen]

6.97cm is 2.744094"

 

3.36 " is  8.5344cm 

[Thierry BERNARD]

you are right Stephan!!

 

and

 

2 sun 3 bu  is 6.97cm

[Stephen]

So one is typo  must be the inch, and i cant see any self-respecting samurai using that small tsuba on a large daito.  

[Barrie B]

Thierry,

Great looking tsuba.. I love it. Thanks for posting. I wonder how big Saotome like this can get..?

 

Stephen, 

Just checked my book and it states 3.36 inches.. I should have checked the conversion. Good pick up mate.. sorry I missed it.

 

So did the Tokugawa expect Samurai to use 2 sun 3 bu Tsuba..? It was a relatively peaceful time (was it not?) and I would think that 2 sun 3 bu would be a less likely typo than 3.36"..?

 

I personally like smaller sized tsuba on katana koshirae, and do think that looks more aesthetically pleasing (than large tsuba) on koshirae.. but that may just be me..

 

Barrie.

[Spartancrest]

This is my first post even though I have dipped into some archived material over the years, so I hope you are not too critical.

I have just purchased what I hope is an early Saotome tsuba of very large dimensions 112mm x 5mm. As I have yet to receive it all I can post is a rather grainy photo. It certainly looks - - neglected but I hope that with some care It may improve. The question was asked 'Just how big did Saotome tsuba get?' Well mine is pretty big - - if it is a genuine piece and I can't honestly tell from the photo but I am hopeful.

Dale from Tassie

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Barrie

 

what book is this you're quoting from? please. :-)

[Barrie B]

Hi Dale,

 

I'm not an expert on Saotome, but that is a large Tsuba.. Needs a little a TLC as you say.. Would love to see it in hand..

 

Barrie. 

[Barrie B]

Hi Ford,

 

The book I quote from is a (photo-copied) facsimile of SOKEN KODOKU YOGU to MEISHO no KAISETSU (An explanation of sword fittings terminology) taken from the notebooks of Rear Admiral Edwin T Layton, US Navy, Ret. and other sources by Alan L Harvie.

 

It is an absolutely informative book that I have really enjoyed reading. 

 

I would really like to know if these laws were actually passed (by the Tokugawa) and to what extent they were adhered to..

 

Barrie. 

[b.hennick]

I think that it needs more than a little TLC. 

[ROKUJURO]

.....I have just purchased what I hope is an early Saotome tsuba of very large dimensions..... It certainly looks - - neglected but I hope that with some care It may improve.......

Tassie,

 

that is an interesting TSUBA, but in fact a ruin I am afraid. It might be difficult to restore the original surface when so much steel has turned into oxide! What a pity!

 

You should ask for Ford Hallam's advice!

[Alan Morton]

A linisher would help a lot   

Alan

[Spartancrest]

I realize a lot of the members of this site are lovers of the pristine, the never used, over decorated- - dare I say decadent types of Tsuba. I have gone the other way and much prefer those Tsuba that were used by the guys who did the fighting not those who stood to gain from it. Even though I am a new member, some comments I have seen made on this site are downright snobbish. Is this a site for enthusiasts or is it for those who want to show off? I noted some time back a discussion on soft metal Tsuba not being 'real battle' guards as they would not deflect a blade from the hand or else be ruined in the process. Can I put my two cents worth in and say that you guys need to look outside the box a bit! There are a great deal of sword types throughout the world that have no guards at all. one instance being the traditional Cossack sabre - do you seriously believe it could never have been used in combat? The existence of Tsuba is NOT solely for defence if it were, an awful lot of weapons would need to be thrown out- tanto for instance, what protection does a tanto tsuba of any material offer other than to stop the grip going up the blade?

Dale from Tassie

[Thierry BERNARD]

A very common blame done by newbies "you don't see things with my point of view so you are snobbish" nothing new!!!
perhaps it's just because we have seen much more quality tsuba (used or not used) than you that it's more difficult for us to be in admiration in front of every rusty metal piece that we see!!!

but I agree with you sometimes there is some ridiculous debate like the one you mention about the soft metal tsuba!

[ROKUJURO]

Dale,

you have a right to your opinion, but I feel you are quite wrong in what you think about the preferred TSUBA type and condition.
I don't want to comment further on your message, but for me there is a big difference between the patina of a TSUBA that was allowed to age in all honours while in the use of careful hands, and an other one that had been neglected and was left to corrosion after its 'duty period' because nobody cared or did not know what they had.

Of course there are a few cases of 'archeological' TSUBA finds with heavy corrosion, when they were lost in battle or found buried in graves together with their respective owners but these are rare.

You seem to be new to the subject so perhaps it would be a good idea to read a lot here on NMB and look at the many pictures before you judge many the community to be snobs.   

[Brian]

One person in a long thread makes a comment about kinko tsuba not being as battle worthy as iron tsuba....(he's allowed his opinion!) and then the entire forum is accused of being snobs because we obviously all follow that train of thought? If you read the forum a bit more, you will know tsuba had nothing to do with defence really. Not there to block a blow to the hand. Not at all.
Not the first time someone has pulled that same move, and not the last. I tend to ignore it nowdays, as it is obviously just a form of trolling.

And because we can't all afford top quality tsuba...we have to now lower our standards and start appreciating rusty relics? I don't think so Tim.

There is a huge difference between plain iron tsuba that have been cared for, but are utilitarian, and rusted relics that have been sitting in water for years. I would like to see someone on an art forum moan that they can't afford top quality art, and therefore the forum should start discussing and appreciating his grandma's doodlings because otherwise they are just elitist.

Losing my patience with the old accusations of snobbery (snobbishness?) because we aren't diplomatic enough for some.
For the record, we study art. The fact that they are weapons is secondary, but nonetheless important. However there is already 1000 years of tradition that tells us how and what to appreciate. If you think you need to change that, suggest you contact the Japanese. I'm quite happy with the way we do things, and looking at other forums...quite happy with the way we do it too.

[Kurikata]

Patina = Protection

Rust = Destruction

[Spartancrest]

I have read a great deal of the sites posts and the reaction to my post suggests that some members are really not good readers. At no stage did I say 'all' members were snobs , newbie or not I can read. Some posts are relevant and fair and everyone should have a right to an opinion. We cant all afford the very best and in its own way that is a good thing. If we all had the very best would that not distort the truth? From a purely historical standpoint don't we need the balance? One comment that I had no experience was dead-set wrong, I have been a collector for more than thirty years and like the rest, that does not mean I know it all.

Thanks for some of the kind  comments.

Dale

[ROKUJURO]

Dale,

you have been a collector of what?

I am also a collector for almost 40 years of Japanese swords and related items, and in most of the subjects I still feel like a beginner, compared to the very knowledgeable experts! My impression is that nobody knows it all (as always), and that one life is much too short!

In the first place, collecting means studying for me, comparing, learning to look, and not piling up related items in whatever condition. This has nothing to do with money or good and bad.

And I want to add that I did not blame you for the condition of your TSUBA! It has its own history and may indeed have been one of the many items that were lost on a battlefield and found much later corroded in the dirt! Who knows?

 

[Spartancrest]

Jean C. I collect mainly iron guards, lately I have a growing interest in kawari-gata the more unusual the better, some just don't make any sense to me. I know that wearing swords often involved a fast draw and the one thing you don't want is to get tangled in clothing. I also realize that the tsuka was held out slightly from the body to clear this problem, but why did they take the chance? I have examples that are kawari and exactly the same design with a smooth maru-mimi. I find these mysteries great fun. I had one comment from the Administrator 

"For the record, we study art. The fact that they are weapons is secondary, but nonetheless important. However there is already 1000 years of tradition that tells us how and what to appreciate. If you think you need to change that, suggest you contact the Japanese. I'm quite happy with the way we do things, and looking at other forums...quite happy with the way we do it too."

This is fine but doesn't the heading of this very page state "Dedicated to the Study and Preservation of Genuine Japanese Swords and Fittings." surely this can include even the 'junk' and we all know the Japanese also produced plenty of that. I did not join to cause trouble but the administration also states "Losing my patience with the old accusations of snobbery"  Does anyone have the number of accusations- - could be a pattern - !

Dale

[ROKUJURO]

Dale,

why don't we work together? You are interested in the same field, and the NMB is indeed devoted to serious research of what makes the values of good TOSOGU (besides swords) and is not at all elitistic! 

I for one would be very interested to see some of your TSUBA.

 

[johnnyi]

Hello Shinto. I know very little, and I have a question. It is an interesting fact you mentioned about banning the wearing of kogai or kozuko from 1714 to whenever. . Is there a pattern that you are aware of where tsuba made after 1714-? were made without the kogai and kozuko-ana?  For instance can you date these certain edo period tsuba using this information?  

 

Thank you,  John I

[Barrie B]

Hi John,

 

 

 

 Is there a pattern that you are aware of where tsuba made after 1714-? were made without the kogai and kozuko-ana?

 

No.. clearly there are many tsuba that were made circa 1714 with Ryohitsu ana which is why I was trying to verify the Tokugawa Law. I have seen many tsuba with only the Kozuka ana present and these are clearly for Tanto or Wakizashi. If Kogai were supposedly banned from being worn on katana, then I too ask 'why do we see so many Katana sized Tsuba made with Ryohitsu ana?

 

Barrie.

[Spartancrest]

To Jean C

 

.i only joined this group for mutual exchange not aggravation

 My collection is small, all up about 70, most are not great works of art that's for sure !  There is one that is very ugly by any standards but it still interests me. It is very crude, the seppa  is iron with two rivets to the (copper?) body. rather heavy but surprisingly tactile, no sharp edges. Maybe it was a hobby piece but it seems to have some age to it. Wonder  if any one has seen one like it? As I said it is ugly!

[Spartancrest]

To Jean C.

The picture icon on my post is one of mine, it is made of Deer antler cross-section, the spongy core is reinforced with silver and the mei is carved in gold (kakihan ?) I have not got a translation for it. Would the rough outline constitute Kawari or maru I wonder?

Dale.

[Ford Hallam]

Hello Dale

 

I think that your deer antler tsuba is actually a modern era production.

 

The gold coloured insets on the seppa-dai are not Kakihan in the classical sense nor are they engraved. They're stamped makers marks of the sort modern jewellers generally use. This sort of 'signature/makers mark wasn't employed in the Edo period by tsuba makers. The one in the rectangle is simply the kanji for Oni or demon.

The unimaginative placement is another clue pointing to their modern origin.

 

There's a passing familial resemblance between this antler piece and the previous, brass, tsuba you posted. While that one is quite imaginative in it's conception I reckon it too is not of Edo period manufacture.

 

As to the Saotome style tsuba you posted first I would be less certain of making a judgement without seeing it in hand but from what I can see I can't say it fills me with confidence. For one thing the relatively sharp edge of the mimi seems incongruous with the overall condition of the surface. The nakago ana and kozuka hitsu also don't look right somehow.

 

But those are merely my opinions.

 

Ford

[ROKUJURO]

Dale,

thank you.

Your first brass (?) TSUBA is probably not a SANMAI (not sanmei) construction. How ever it was made (sculpted or more likely cast), it does not seem to be a three-layer construction as the rivets would imply. I think that the rivets just fill two holes. Probably the TSUBA was used as a keyhole liner, I have seen this in several occasions. In any case, it is an unusual TSUBA.

Your antler TSUBA for a HIRAZUKURI blade may be called KAWARI GATA (irregular shape) as well as TATE MARU GATA (oval round), but I tend to the first. It is unusual as well, but I have seen TSUBA made from leather, bone, ivory and lacquer, so why not?  

[Ford Hallam]

Jean

 

the curious brass tsuba seems to have on one side of the seppa-dai area in iron. I think an additional piece was riveted to the thinner brass plate to create a more substantial seppa-dai.   So two part assembly but I wouldn't call it ni-mai ether , maybe kawari- tsukuri.