The Ebay Game

[Daso]

So as i started off the safe route, i remain curious about all the $499 Waks out there with signatures but no papers and the read the boards and reactions. Does everyone by a an ebay sword expecting Gimei but hoping that for the price it is still another decent smith or hope that by some chance its real? Also, are the Japanese just unloading junk to the US and im seeing listings from Croatia commonly as well (is there a reason for this). There are so many waks on ebay one feels like just checking one out for the hell of it. Im still not prepared to waste the money when ive already seen a few more reputable dealers items at goodbprices. You see some dealers from Japan with 2,000 positive reviews but are the people buying leaving excellent reviews 1) shills 2) clueless people 3) reasonable reviews Just some thoughts. Darius

[DirkO]

Hi Darius,

eBay is what it is, an enormous platform for items of varying quality. This teaches us a few things: seeing there are a lot of people looking, chances of getting a bargain are very slim. And the less educated you are on a subject, the less likely you'll be to find a bargain. If it's not papered on eBay and you don't know your stuff, stay well away. There's a reason things don't go for a higher price - plain and simple - they're not worth it!  And yes, the Japanese are trying to sell items on eBay for far more than they would ever hope to get in the domestic market (eg YahooJP). Reputations on eBay are a bit of a guideline, but can easily be faked. It's really a matter of treading very carefully, and if you do take that step, be prepared for it to be a let down. 

[kissakai]

Hi Darius

If you saw a Mercedes on Ebay at half price would you buy it!

It is half price for a reason

 

 

Grev UK

[Brian]

eBay is generally a clearing ground for stuff that won't sell elsewhere. Mumei or gimei poor condition wakizashi are common on Japan, and don't sell. So they dump them on a Western market who cares more about age or Samurai "romanticism" than quality. A lot of these buyers think they can polish, or restore them, and end up flooding the market with more junk in poor quality put-together fittings and an amateur polish.
Nothing wrong with buying a few if you like them, and understand what you are getting. But too many people think they are treasure hunting and might find a diamond in the rough. Dealers prey on that hope, and that's why you see so many of them for sale.

[Daso]

thanks, As much as I actually use eBay to sell items I get bored of especially Quality watches, I need to keep the word katana and Tsuba out of my search fun. I do like to look up the Smiths listed but need to keep it at that. I need to go to the Metropolitan museum of art here and look at their swords soon

[Taz575]

I picked up 2 Wakizashi from Ebay recently that I am very happy with.  One was $1040 shipped and the other was around $790 shipped.  One is mumei, the other is gimei.  I bought each one for having a very active/interesting hamon and ignored the ware/fukure that each had, which are not bad or fatal on either one.  One has a small fukure in the hamon and the other has a ware in the shinogi ji area.  Neither detract from my enjoyment of either piece.  You need to get good pictures of the blades and really look at them.  There are some out there that are horribly rusted/corroded or have lots of big openings, etc.  Some pictures show this, others do not.  Some are in good polish, others have been acid enhanced.  I read on here buy the blade, not the mei/signature.  I am looking for the next piece, but am looking at places other than just Ebay.  I am studying the first 2 blades I got and trying to determine the schools of each so I know what to look closer at because I really like flamboyant, active hamons and activity in the steel itself.

 

You can see the 2 wakizashi I am referring to in the posts in this section about the first and second Ebay wak. 

[Chango]

I've bought 2 swords on Ebay for about $1k each over the past couple of years; a first gen Tadayuki and a Kanemoto (still not sure which one but everything except the fairly regular sanbon sugi hamon matches up well with Magoroku); both are still in restorable condition (the Tadayuki got a positive second opinion by Bob Benson at Bushido Antique) and I do hope to pursue restoration in the future.  

 

 

 

 

If I put the money into polish/koshirae restoration and shinsa; I would probably not loose and have a couple of very nice collectable Nihonto.

 

In their current condition, they've been an interesting low-budget introduction to Nihonto all by themselves and along with books, having actual original swords that I can study has been great for my own learning process as I live in the cultural wasteland of Utah and have no access to clubs/museums on the subject   Also,  I'm sure I could throw the swords back on ebay as-is and get my money back if I wanted to. Granted, it would be better to study swords in better condition but I don't have the ability to drop $10-50K on a sword for my collection currently so "in the rough" blades from good smiths that can be restored are the next best thing.

 

So yeah, you CAN play the ebay game as a newbie and come out OK.

 

But it's a minefield! Don't forget the odds are stacked against you and every purchase is a gamble as you are buying based on pictures without inspecting the actual item and will be likely buying it from someone who HAS inspected it, is more knowledgeable about the subject than you and may or may not be a honest seller. A huge number of swords listed on Ebay are fakes as well; for the newbie it can be a challenge to even separate the fakes from the actual nihonto, to say nothing about separating the good nihonto from the bad.

 

Beyond that, if you get lucky and buy something that even IS restorable (without fatal flaws), is a sword of quality (most antique swords weren't) that was actually made by a smith of note (only a few hundred of the 20,000+ Japanese smiths throughout history) you would STILL have to pay at least $2-7,000 (or more!) for a quality togishi /koshirae restoration and papers, endure the hazards of international shipping and probably wait 2-3 years to get it all done.

 

That pushes the total price right into the same zone as buying an average quality and already papered, restored and/or good condition sword from a reputable dealer but without all the pitfalls and time spent. The only real benefit is the low initial cost of entry... and that is always a gamble.   Food for thought, anyway.

 

Personally, I will gamble no more than about $1-1500K on ebay for something I think might be special based on my admittedly limited but no longer entirely uneducated  (and improving!) eye for Nihonto. I would also be very careful about overseas purchases and I wouldn't buy from someone who does not accept returns or answer questions about the item.

 

That said, I'm glad ebay is an option as I'm just a guy of average means with a family to take care of as well as other expensive hobbies/interests. I will probably never own a high-end "pedigree" sword, but at least it gives me the opportunity to dabble in Nihonto as a hobby and on a budget. 

 

In the end, it works for me... I'm a history buff, not a treasure hunter or "serious collector" and unlike most of the hardcore nihontophiles on the forum, the Japanese sword and samurai-related antiques still hold some magic for me.  The stuff I've bought (not just swords) carry a whiff of the essence from a time and place that is endlessly fascinating to me and it thrills me to own stuff I previously though I could only see in museums while on vacation.

 

So buy from Ebay... but buy smart!

[Jamie]

You are giving advice when you don't really know how well or poorly you've done. Neither sword is restored or papered. I'm not trying to be combative just pointing that out.

[Daso]

Chango,  A very thoughtful response, Thank you.  In other segments of antiquities, condition is nowhere near what one experiences in Japanese swords.  Half of the vaguely attainable Medieval swords of the iron age are pretty much rust buckets, but hey are still beautiful.  Authenticity remains a question across all antiquities period.  People jokingly say (but close to truth) that half of the antiquities in museums are fakes themselves and no one can tell the difference.  Hard to tell when the faker made it 100 years or even 500 years after the guy that made it 3,000 years ago!  Overall, I wouldn't buy antiquities on ebay either but I see your point.  Still,  So far it looks like even if real, by the time restored and time in, just not worth it yet for me unless really really cheap.

[Dave R]

I have been tempted by blades on Ebay, but not succumbed. In the end I will not part with over a certain amount of money unless I have had the item in my hand, or know the seller personally. I have bought WW2 Gunto koshirae and other small fittings direct from Japan, with mixed results but never spent so much money as to really regret it when it did not work out.

Dave

[SAS]

None of the blades i have bought have come from Ebay, but i do occasionally look at nihonto listed there. I have seen some katana and many wakizashi that look worth going for if I had been in the market at that time. However, with so many swords available from reputable persons here on the NMB, it seems better to consider first what is offered here.

[Chango]

You are giving advice when you don't really know how well or poorly you've done. Neither sword is restored or papered. I'm not trying to be combative just pointing that out.

 

Well, yes and no.

 

Did I buy real 3-500 year old swords originally from Japan? Yes.

 

Are they worth what I paid? Yeah sure, I feel like I got my money's worth and could fairly resell them for at least what I paid.

 

Have I enjoyed the time I've spent learning about my beat up swords and their related (swordsmithing) schools? Big Yes! From that angle I feel like I did well !

 

But are they poor swords from the perspective of the serious collector? Yeah, probably... even if they aren't gimei their condition sucks and in the case of the Tadayuki, it's a relatively boring sword/maker/timeframe from a collecting standpoint. After restoration/shinsa I could only realistically expect breaking even on the cost front and if restoration/shinsa failed, I would loose money. 

 

Would a good museum put either of 'em on display? No way.

 

Did I find "treasure swords" that have the potential to make new auction house records? Of course not.

 

If I want to play in that league I can't expect to get there with only a couple thousand bucks and an ebay account.

 

I still don't think the Kanemoto is actually a Magoroku work (stuff like that just doesn't happen to me! ) but as I study and compare that's where I continue to be lead back to (so far) so there are at least legitimate ties (or carefully thought out forgery to connect it) to that master smith which is fairly interesting in and of itself. Anyway I've got some more books on the way and am enjoying the learning... and  having the thought that it could *just maybe* be an actual Saijo O Wazamono rated swordsmith's work. It's certainly sharp enough to impress me anyway, though I'm low on corpses to test it myself. Anyway It's just a hobby and I'm not trying to profit or score an amazing piece of art, just not get screwed over myself and satisfy my curiosity for history.

 

As to who's qualified to give advice or not, this is the internet and you get what you pay for!

 

Seriously, I don't and never have claimed to be a nihonto expert, but I'm not an idiot (not counting my wife's opinion, anyway!) am actively filling my head with information on the subject and it doesn't take a PHD in Japanese antiquities to say: "look, here's how I enjoy myself with one of my hobbies" when someone asks. Take it or leave it; my advice is always free, though probably more valuable in a hobby where I'm considered one of the "experts", not a noob like Nihonto. 

 

And it's OK to be a newbie... all interests start somewhere; we just need to be willing to learn and have helpful teachers to give us some guidance.

 

This is a good thread because I'm sure many a man (or women's) "Nihonto Journey" started on Ebay too... and while this forum doesn't seem to be very "newbie friendly" (and neither is Ebay), the tenacious ones will stick around nevertheless.

[ggil]

If you are willing to spend some time scouring and 'watching' on eBay, you can find deals no doubt. Not for med or high end mostly decent low end stuff deals, but even some med and high end comes through once in a while. It gets easier with practice, glancing over the Chinese fakes. There are about 6 Japanese dealers I like to check out for fittings. Everything I own came from eBay. All blades but one were bought from US resellers who don't specialize in nihonto, and I am very happy with my blade purchases: (I have been equally fortunate when it comes to fittings - maybe quite a bit more so, in fact)

- $220 mumei 22" nagasa foot soldier one hand blade in the Yamato style, 73mm motogasan, 17th-18th C (in sandpaper polish but w/o foundation damage, no habaki, almost flawless forging)
-$137 mumei 18" nagasa wak with excellent mino-like hamon lots of features, 63mm motogasan, 16-17th C (old polish w very minor pitting, almost flawless forging)
-$300 forge stamped/signed police short saber w real blade and excellent condition fittings, large edge chips in 2 spots but polishable (no plans here for that) - (police issue turn of 20th C)
-$650 signed "takada fusamori" wak with excellent hamon features and impeccable foundation polish - no papers, but am hopeful for shoshin
-$550 mumei tanto/wak in old koshirae, 65mm motokassan, munemachi, 2 nail catchers near tip, lovely lacquer on the Saya, beautiful sugata blade
-$1000 signed showato? in shirisaya, mokume and masame hada (this Showa school was known for flashy hada) purchased from a Japanese dealer on eBay

Jamie does have a good point, but my money is on Mr. Benson's feeling of what the blade is (if Jason is being completely transparent in relaying Mr. Benson's appraisal) Jason (Chango) may not be in the red per say, but maybe he is being risky buying eBay signed blades in poor polish (although it seems he was actually lucky thus far). Probably not a good idea to press luck, but there may be money to be made buying like Jason is, who knows. Can't forget that the odd master-work does come through time to time.

[Kai-Gunto]

4 years ago I got a katana in full polish and koshirae made in 1981 by Ogawa Kanekuni (Father) for 89usd on ebay.

 

Ps. It came in a high quality brocade bag.

 

I love ebay!

[ggil]

$89! That is freaking awesome! will you please post some pictures of what $89 can get you?

[Stephen]

A few of us seen it, pic were bad, mounts looked like cheap training sword, only Thomas took time to give it a closer look, its called training and knowledge. If you know what your looking at deals can be found, hints to look for: non sword sellers, only one sword along with knickknacks someone who ran into it at a sale,ect.  

[Chango]

Jamie does have a good point, but my money is on Mr. Benson's feeling of what the blade is (if James is being completely transparent in relaying Mr. Benson's appraisal) James (Chango) may not be in the red per say, but maybe he is being risky buying eBay signed blades in poor polish (although it seems he was actually lucky thus far). Probably not a good idea to press luck, but there may be money to be made buying like James is, who knows. Can't forget that the odd master-work does come through time to time.

Luck I don't think I can keep up, but they still weren't random purchases and neither of the ebay sellers gave mei translations or even seemed to know much about what they were selling (pretty much what everyone is saying, look for dealers/sellers that don't specialize in swords and get as much knowledge as you can on what to look for).

 

...but if anyone wants to know,(and among other clues) I was mostly betting than a sword considered special enough to get a rare and expensive kairage-zame saya back in Edo times stood a better than even chance of being a higher-end blade (although I didn't know what it was called back when I bought the Tadayuki, only that I'd seen them in museums). I also picked sellers who would accept returns in case one had fatal flaws or turned out to be obviously gimei once I could get the blade in hand and compare it to examples in my reading materials.

 

Mr Benson is a great guy though... rather than loot me for all I was worth he supported me when I waivered and finally decided to wait and invest in learning more before jumping into a long and expensive restoration. The small amount of money I paid him for his time and postage was well spent in my opinion and I cannot recommend him enough!

[Jean]

"

...but if anyone wants to know,(and among other clues) I was mostly betting than a sword considered special enough to get a rare and expensive kairage-zame saya back in Edo times stood a better than even chance of being a higher-end blade"

 

That's the worst bet/reason I have heard. We have a very good saying in French which says "the dress does not make the monk".

 

I have seen scores of blades which did not belong to their saya...

[Kai-Gunto]

 

$89! That is freaking awesome! will you please post some pictures of what $89 can get you?

Its the sword at the buttom.

 

And when I took off tsuka...........my eyes almost felt out

[Jamie]

 

I'm glad that you seem so far to have had good luck.

I'm just saying that you don't and really won't truly know until the blades are restored. And once you've paid all restoration and papering costs.

So you really don't know how well you've done.

And you'll have to wait to truly study your swords. You'll see in told details once they are polished.

[e_v]

Thomas, 
I'd be a liar if I'd say I did not curse your name reading your story

Jokes apart, congrats for the great find! I bet it will inspire a few treasure hunters to burn some hard earned money in romantic, mysterious auctions

[Daso]

I can say that I now obsessively try to stop at all yard sales on the way up to my country house "Just" in case?  So far, maybe there was a collectors barbie doll but no katanas

[Kai-Gunto]

Thomas,

I'd be a liar if I'd say I did not curse your name reading your story

Jokes apart, congrats for the great find! I bet it will inspire a few treasure hunters to burn some hard earned money in romantic, mysterious auctions

A funny thing about the date of the sword. Thats when I started collecting Japanese swords.