koshi-zori, oh really .........

[nagamaki - Franco]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Japanese-Samurai-Sword-Koto-Tachi-Blade-26-7_W0QQitemZ160187244741QQihZ006QQcategoryZ73466QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

that's some diagram on the 2nd image down. There's only one little problem, this is not how sori is measured!

 

> http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/measure.htm

[paulb]

WIth respect Franco I dont think Mike is suggesting it is the way its measured. He is just showing (very graphically) the extent of the Koshi-sori.

[hybridfiat]

Anybody want to hazard a guess as to what it is worth/going to sell for?

Im looking for a katana to pair with my shinto O wakizashi

[nagamaki - Franco]

WIth respect Franco I dont think Mike is suggesting it is the way its measured. He is just showing (very graphically) the extent of the Koshi-sori.

 

Hi Paul, that's the problem, this sword has no koshizori, distinct or otherwise. It is strictly tori-zori. While most of the curvature comes in the first third, granted, the center of the curve is nearest the center of the sword, making it torizori. Then, if you look at the mune of the nakago in the 5th picture it is quite straight and in line with the mune in front of the hamachi, not curving as you would see in an early Bizen sword. It is simply incorrect to suggest koshizori here.

[Kajihei]

Holding the nakago vertical -- or horizontal, keeping it constant anyway -- is an effective way of visualizing the differences in sori styles.

 

http://www.geocities.com/fugin999/blade_samurai83.jpg

 

What you call it is not that important, since we are all experts here, as long as the visual message is accurately conveyed.

 

Kaj

[paulb]

Hi Franco,

I can see what you are describing but dont altogether agree with your assessment. for it to be Koshi-sori the centre of the curve needs to be closer to the nakago and not central. this need only be by a small amount.

I think the fact that the majority of the curve is near the nakago and the blade straightens towards the kissaki maybe gives a koshi-sori impression (maybe its my varifocals playing tricks!!)

[Brian]

Hi,

 

If we can keep this discussion unemotional, then I think it could be an informative and interesting one. Judging sori is one of the most important and also most difficult things to do in kantei. I know I battle with it, as it isn't something that can be measured exactly, and sometimes is just an overall impression you get. This is before we even get to o-suriage etc!

 

Here are the pics, with a line added to assist a bit. I would be interested in comments too.

 

Brian

[huntershooter]

Certainly appears the sori is greater towards the nakago.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

In judging sori the tapering can fool the eyes...

[remzy]

To me, judging from Brian' pic, it does look Koshi sori.

 

Remy

[Brian]

I do understand what Franco is getting at. To judge sugata/sori you can't just draw a straight line through the nakago and tell immediately if it is koshi/tori/saki sori. You need a baseline in your mind along the mune to get more of an idea. It is not just as simple as a short line, and as Carlo said, taper can definitely mislead.

Judging sori is one of the basics you need to learn, and one I am still struggling with

 

Brian

[nagamaki - Franco]

Brian, thank you for posting the "underlined image." If one counts from the habaki 3 tiles to the right, the deepest distance measured between the sword and the black line running from the hamachi to the sword tip (which is how sori is defined) comes at just on the border between the 3rd and 4th tile and/or maybe even a tad to the right of the border between the 3rd and 4th tile, just inside the 4th tile.

This is not a matter of opinion here, sori is a measured distance. In fact with computer imaging its easy to take an image, add a line like Brian has, then place a ruler vertically against the screen and run it from habaki to tip and find the greatest distance between the sword and line, that's your sori. In the case of this sword, the sori is more than a third of the distance (this can be measured too), closer to the center of the sword making it tori-zori.

 

One other note, the reason it is important to define sori correctly is that it is one of the keys to determining time period. Koshizori is suggesting Kamakura or earlier, and in all likelihood Bizen, which is a rather significant indication, is it not?

[Gabriel L]

In judging sori the tapering can fool the eyes...

Not only the tapering, but the big flash bloom placed way back, the angle of the pictures, the bright yellow habaki all pull the eye back as well.

 

Below is the same sword traced very carefully in photoshop and then turned into a black-and white image. Also, rotated slightly clockwise from the above image. Suddenly looks a bit more tori-zori, doesn't it?

 

I don't feel strongly about it one way or the other, actually. I would have called it tori-zori myself but I wouldn't be surprised if someone else called it koshi-zori. I just tend to reserve koshi-zori for more obvious examples, giving tori-zori some leeway towards the back end.

 

Cheers,

-GLL

[remzy]

After watching your picture Gabriel, i still think this one is on the Koshi sori side of the line, but i admit it isnt obvious. The highest point still look closer to the habaki than the kissaki, to me anyways.

[Bungo]

Brian,

can you draw a straight through the nakago and show how the blade itself " bend " away from the nakago ?

 

milt the flying ronin

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Not only the tapering, but the big flash bloom placed way back, the angle of the pictures, the bright yellow habaki all pull the eye back as well.

 

Hi Gabriel.

My post wasn't strictly related to the sword in question but more general.

The meaning I wasn't able to express is that the blade IMHO is Torizori

as you suggest, and the tapering the reason because of it has been

taken wrong IF we're rigth (if in capital letters... :D ).

 

Millimetrical measurements will never give you a torizori of course...

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Hi Milt.

 

You mean this ?

[Bungo]

no, a straight line through the long. axis of the nakago

 

milt

[Bungo]

ops.... forget that, the seller already did that on the second pic..................

 

sorry for wasting everyone's time.

 

milt

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Not at all Milt.

The seller isn't a moron, so the chances Torisori is

the wrong reply is high.

[nagamaki - Franco]

In taking issue with the claim of koshizori, let me also say that I take no issue in regards with the seller's statements that the sword is a koto/ tachi.

 

That aside, it might be suggested in light of Gabriel's and Carlo's posted diagrams, if you have the Compton catalogs or 100 masterpiece book, take a couple of rulers, the clear plastic kind work nicely, and find the sori by measurement of various swords from all the different periods beginning with Heian. This is an exercise that helps train the eye and reveals much about shapes.

[Gabriel L]

Let's just all agree it definitely isn't saki-zori. :lol:

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Let's just all agree it definitely isn't saki-zori. :lol:

 

Sakè-zori ? :lol:

[remzy]

*suddently feels like drinking some sake...*