Yamato Shizu - Academic Question - A Mystery

[Jean]

I had a discussion by e-mail with my friend Paul B. about Yamato Shizu, Kaneuji, Shizu. In the Article section, you will find a very thorough article written by him about this smith:

 

http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/articles/YamatoShizu.pdf

 

You will see equally, Darcy's classification of these labels.

 

Tanobe san wrote this:

 

"In the looser definition Yamato Shizu includes those who were in the line of Shodai Kaneuji 包氏 in the Yamato Tegai School and remained in Yamato as the successors in Yamato of the one who moved to Mino and became Shizu Saburo Kaneuji."

 

There are still questions to know whether if he was a Masamune student or if he studied in Yamato the Technics of Soshu masters.

 

If we agree that the smith moved from Yamato to Kamakura, then to Shizu in Mino, how come there was a Yamato Shizu school in Yamato if he never went back to Yamato.

 

Or Can we take for hypothesis that Kaneuji never went to Kamakura but studied Soshu blades, started to teach in Yamato and moved to Mino Shizu. This would mean that Yamato Shizu blades include Kaneuji Tegai followers in Yamato and Kaneuji with his followers in Shizu. This would mean that Kaneuji work in Shizu is labelled Yamato Shizu. This would explain why the first school which appears in Mino is Naoe Shizu.

 

In fact, I have found a part of the solution.

 

Noboby knows when Shizu changed the first kanji of his name from the 包 kanji used by Yamato smiths to the Mino kanji kane used by Mino smiths. There is no remaining swords of him with a 包氏 mei. So all the O suriage works attributed to Kaneuji are kanteied to Yamato Shizu wherever they were made. It means that Yamato Shizu blades include not only Yamato blades but also Mino blades.

 

Remains the mystery of the Yamato Shizu school located in Yamato, can we take the hypothesis I planted as real?

 

Sorry but my English today seems as confused as my heat oppressed brain

[Jacques]

Shizu or Shizu Saburo being KaneuJi nickname, Yamato Shizu = Yamato Kaneuji.

 

Knowing that, there is no matter to wonder.

[Jean]

Jacques,

 

Everybody knows this and it is perfectly explained by Paul in his article. Even Tanobe san find this point confusing

 

How do you explain a Yamato school named Yamato Shizu when Kaneuji or Shizu or Yamato Shizu (whatever you like) never went back to Yamato after his Kamakura travel?

[paulb]

Also for a Juyo paper Yamato Shizu only = Kaneuji if the paper says Shodai Yamato Shizu otherwise it refers to his students who remained inYamato. (requoted from information supplied by Tanobe san)

[Markus]

To my understanding, the wider definition of Yamato-Shizu refers to Yamato-based smiths who too adjusted to the Soshu style and not to those who stuck to the traditional Tegai style as those would usually get specific attributions like "Tegai" or "Kanetomo" (包友) or "Kaneuji" (包氏) or something like that. So even if master Saburo Kaneuji never returned to Yamato, the local smiths still experienced a Soshu influence and they are summarized as "Yamato-Shizu".

[Pete Klein]

This was helpful to me:  http://www.nihonto.com/abtartkaneuji.html

 

and this more so:  http://www.nihonto.ca/shizu-3/

 

PS:  Jean -- thanks so much for bringing this up as I've learned a lot today about something I knew very little about!

[Jean]

I think that Markus is very near from the solution which is not far from my hypothesis but for the fact that it was the Yamato Tegai smiths who studied Soshu technics in Yamato. But remains the fact, that these guys are referred as his students but AFAIK, nobody has been able to name one....

[Markus]

But remains the fact, that these guys are referred as his students but AFAIK, nobody has been able to name one....

 

I think that the answer might already be hidden in that question: We can't really name any specific student or even distinguish between them so we have to use the term "Yamato-Shizu" to refer to post-Kaneuji local Soshu influenced Yamato works.

 

Or: We do see for sure a post-Kaneuji Soshu influence on local Yamato works but are no longer able to name any specific Kaneuji student or smith: et voilà -> Yamato-Shizu should be the term to refer to them.

[Jean]

Markus,

 

Why not Soden Tegai? This interrogation does not need any answer

 

In fact, what can we say except that the Tegai Yamato Shizu "school" has probably no direct relation with Shizu but for a Soshu influence.

[Markus]

Yes, the term Soden-Tegai, or at least Soden-Yamato, would get rid of some ambiguities but too bad they didn't ask us back then when they coined "Yamato-Shizu", hehe.

[Stephen]

Oh you intellectuals, go on with your bad self's.... 

[Jean]

Very good Stephen lol:

 

BTW, were other Yamato schools impacted by this disease? Taima perhaps

[Toryu2020]

I believe there was regular commerce between Mino and the capital, and therefore plenty of opportunity for cross-pollination between smiths.

see attached...

Whither Mino.doc

[Jean]

Some information:

 

http://www.sho-shin.com/kaneuji.html

http://www.sho-shin.com/naoe.htm

 

To go further according some sources, Kaneuji went first to Shizu, then went to Kamakura and relocated in Naoe Mino. BTW, Naoe Shizu school is the first Mino school. Nothing is well known about Shizu and his school. The difference between Yamato Shizu and Shizu is signed sword. About Shizu school (strictly sensus speaking) its story melts with Naoe Shizu school which began around 1345.

 

According to history, some students moved from from Shizu to Naoe thus creating the Naoe Shizu school, the first real Mino school. The students who moved to Naoe are well known but those who remained in Shizu are not well known and what became of this Shizu school remains uncertain...