Ww2 Bringback - Rusty Katana Opinions?

[FletchSan]

Hi All,

 

This is the Katana which finally arrived today and mentioned in my ww2 wakizashi post. It is in pretty original condition and fairly rusty and as such pretty hard to see hamon or any activity.

I am taking it to a togishi on Saturday to see if a window could be opened up and would like your opinions on whether it could be a koto sword as it has a decent curve and also thoughts on the Koshirae which appear to be original to the sword with family mon fittings. The habaki and seppa are covered in gold foil. Everything fits very tightly together and I had a hard time getting the Tsuka and Habaki off the sword.

 

There is also what appears to be a silver inscription on the nakago which is faded and no longer legible. I cannot see any significant flaws other than two small chips on the edge.

 

Nagasa: 66.4cm

Sori: 2.2cm

 

thanks,

 

Ben

[vajo]

Looks old for me. I like that metal same.

[ROKUJURO]

Ben,

a nice complete package! Congratulations!

I do not think it might be KOTO because of the shape of the NAKAGO (not nagako!), but you will find out. Restoration of this part may prove to be difficult when you want to preserve the patina while making the MEI legible.

I like the KOSHIRAE which is simple and probably quite late, but oviously in good condition. (Chris, this is no metal SAME, it is lacquered!).

In general there is no period or time relation between blade and mounting, and a KOTO blade with original KOTO KOSHIRAE would be a very rare piece! 

The blade condition is a problem. I have the impression that it once was rusted all over, then cleaned in a non-appropriate way (sandpapered?) and had suffered from new rust again. A TOGISHI (I hope you have found a Japanese trained polisher?) will have some work with it. HADA seems to be MOKUME in places, I think.

Anyway, I hope for a good outcome of the restoration! Please show photos here!  

[vajo]

(Chris, this is no metal SAME, it is lacquered!).

 

 

Thank you Jean, but for me it did not look like lacquerd ray skin. What skin is it? 

I think it's metal 

[ROKUJURO]

Chris,

yes, it's probably SAME from a rare steel ray...  .

[FletchSan]

Thanks Jean - yes nakago ! I made the correction

 

The same looks like rayskin to me similar to a black lacquered Kai Gunto same I guess. It is not metal.

 

Any ideas what mon it is? I couldn't find it when I searched through family mon - a few similar, but not the same.

 

I am very fortunate to live 30 minutes from a Japanese trained togishi - just need to find a sword decent enough to polish!

[FletchSan]

A few scans which show the overall rusty condition and chips as well as a clearer image of the nakago and inscription. Also interested in thoughts on the Tsuba and whether it is original?

 

cheers,

 

Ben

[vajo]

Looks like a gunto. Is this a mark over the mekugi ana?

And i think i see a signature on the nakago.

 

Not a old blade and no metal same

I think but i didn't know....

 

[Kurikata]

As far as the family crest are concerned on Fuchi-Kashira it looks like we have:

 

Haruno :  https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Haruno_Symbol.png

 

Ichimonji: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Japanese_Crest_Ichimonji.svg?uselang=fr

[ROKUJURO]

Ben,

I cannot see much in the blade pictures, but that may be related to my old eyes!

The iron TSUBA is an original, so not cast or mass produced. It seems a little bit damaged in some places and lost its patina on the copper. Otherwise a nice TSUBA with bamboo and sparrow design - quite common in TSUBA. However, it is not related to the blade, if this was your question.

The MON cannot necessarily be related to a SAMURAI family. In a first internet search (http://www.samurai-archives.com/crest1.html) I did not find this special MON.  

[FletchSan]

Hi Chris,

 

A gunto? really? I dont see it and I have a few gunto. I think that mark you see is just a bit of rust and the blade is lifeless due to rust and possibly a bad attempt at cleaning it some time ago.

 

Here's a closer view of that "arsenal mark"  and a side view of the nakago which shows some yasurime.

[vajo]

Hello Ben

 

thats the problem with photos. I see things that aren't there.

 

So I belive my first posting. It's an old blade...

 

Good luck with it Ben.

[FletchSan]

It could be later - maybe shinshinto in a koto style? The reason I thought koto was purely based on the sugata which seems to be more Koto than Shinto.

Comparing it with the popular "changes in the shape of the Japanese sword" illustration - it matches most closely with late kamakura.

 

Ben

[Stephen]

Lightly oil a cloth and wipe the nakago, you may see more.

The bar and circle, i find one with bar in side the circle, but not out. its listed under Kanji, BTW i collect red copper fittings if you ever part it out and put in shirasaya , which you should do if you polish, a window is a great idea. Id use Ted Tenold or Woody or Bob Benson, for a faster turn around time. 

[Baka Gaijin]

Good morning,

 

I think the Kamon is a stylised fish eye with a single bar.

 

I'm not sure but   "Kago Jyano Me Ichino Ji"  might be a possible search option.

 

Pip Pip

[FletchSan]

Thanks Stephen. I'm seeing Andrew Ickeringill on Saturday, hopefully he'll agree to a window.

 

Is putting oil on the nakago okay? Here is a closer view of the possible mei - are they remnants of lacquer or silver do you think? 

 

Ben

[Stephen]

How long is the nakago? end looks strange, i wonder if it was made longer?? IDK

i dont think i see kanji now, Andy should be able to tell you with in hand good luck

[FletchSan]

Let me help you - I'm sure this is right ... cough

[Kai-Gunto]

I dont thinks its silver on the nakago.

The thicknees of the blade and nakago , tells me that it hasnt been polished a lot or only once when made.

IMO, its a gunto blade that rusted.

[Stephen]

 

[FletchSan]

The nakago is 20.2cm and kasane is 0.8cm.

 

cheers,

 

Ben

[Ray Singer]

Does the blade have ubu-ba?

 

- Ray

[FletchSan]

Hmm that's two for gunto which worries me. I'm hoping its just the condition of the blade that gives it that appearance. I guess I'll know for sure on Saturday,

 

I would expect the mekugi-ana would be drilled on a gunto - though this one looks punched? Also I may have caught the hamon.. or my eyes are playing tricks on me.

 

Ben

[FletchSan]

I had to google that one Raymond! It has the same sharpness all the way to the habaki.

 

cheers,

 

Ben

[ROKUJURO]

Ben,

MASAMUNE is correct! But they are difficult to find these days!

[FletchSan]

Now I'm starting to think it is a gunto given the thickness of the blade, lack of any visible hamon and yokote. I've gone over the nakago in detail and cannot see any sign of an arsenal stamp though.. and strange someone would put authentic Koshirae on a gunto blade. I should really stay clear of rusty bargain katanas but I can't help myself and have another similar one on its way. Hopefully I didn't end up with two rusty guntos ! I'll post pictures of the second rusty katana when I receive it - though attached is a preview..

 

I'll let you the outcome of my togishi visit on Saturday though I have a feeling it wont be good.

 

 

[FletchSan]

Tried my best to capture some hamon by playing with the levels & scanner. I think this may be the hamon underneath the rust..

[ROKUJURO]

Ben,

that doesn't look too bad 'in the substance' apart from the condition. HAMON is visible and might be interesting. NAKAGO looks to be a bit transformed in the shape from an older blade (not sure at all!). Broken KISSAKI may polish out. KOSHIRAE is very simple - (reproduction EBI MENUKI and cheap ITO MAKI) - but not really bad. Of course, KIZU may be hiding under the surface corrosion....

The problem with all these cheaper blades is that you have to invest a considerable amount of money for restoration to really know what you have. In the end there remains a risk to get all your money back in a sale. 

I see no problem for a sale in, say, 400 years from now, but considering a normal lifespan of a collector it might be difficult.   

[FletchSan]

Thanks Jean - I'm sure most collectors go through the "treasure hunter" phase that soon wears off then they focus on only papered polished blades to enjoy I'm sure if I sold all of my cheap out of polish swords I could buy one decent sword. We do have some responsibility to keep the togishi's self-employed though!

 

Do you think the menuki are reproduction? Here is a closer up image of the one on the other side.

 

Also is the Tsuba authentic or cast?

 

thanks,

 

Ben

[Kai-Gunto]

Tsuba looks very dirty