Unsigned Blades With Nbthk Hozon Papers Vs Signed

[Daso]

I am sure this question has come up many times, but searching hasn't yielded the response I'm really looking for.  Obviously a Signed Koto blade with papers is better than and unsigned, but how much weight does an unsigned blade with NBTHK Hozon papers really hold.  Do collectors shy away from these blades more than not? In this case let's use a Koto period blade and and Edo period blade.  I realize there must be a savings involved between the two as well.  It just surprises me that one could know the smith that made a particular sword without some telltale marks.  Please remember this is coming from someone still new to this world of swords.  I'm torn between a unsigned papered Koto Katana vs a papered signed Showa long Wak  and a slightly less expensive Shinto long Wak with some history but no papers. 

[paulb]

Darius,

Firstly which of the three you are looking at do you like the most?

If you like them all equally, they are all of similar condition with no issues then your question comes down to which is commercially most desirable.

As always there are numerous opinions but as a general rule:

An unsigned koto blade is always more commercially acceptable than and unsigned shinto or later piece.

Long swords are more desirable than wakazashi.

Some of the finest and most highly regarded Koto blades are mumei (unsigned) and for many a hozon paper is sufficient and they dont need to obtain higher papers.So a Hozon paper can, in your terms,  hold a lot of weight.

Sorry for being boring and repeating myself but

1. Buy what you like

2. Dont be tied down by attempting to limit yourself to a period or type first and foremost like what you are buying. If you like the showa wakazashi best buy it,

3. Generally speaking a koto blade in good condition (and the key point is good condition) will always be commercially more desrirable than a later blade.

[Jussi Ekholm]

Paul said pretty much what I was going to say.   Go for the sword that you like the most.

 

You might get "more quality" for money invested in wakizashi but they are not as "desirable" as katana or tachi like Paul said above. However it might open some doors financially that would not be possible with a longer blade. It all comes down to what you want to collect.

 

Also collectors have various collecting preferences and people might have differing opinions on prices of some particular swords depending on things the appreciate. It's very hard to give any set prices as it's so much based on unique items. Someone might think a sword is worth 5000€ but for another person fair price in his mind might be 3500€.

 

Question would be how is the condition of the unsigned Koto blade and who is it attributed to? Likewise with the Showa wakizashi, condition is one major thing.

[Fuuten]

For the sake of investment, i think one should advise to not buy unpapered blades, mainly because selling one is quite hard, or get a guarantee to paper atleast hozon. I think most people can attest to there being lots of fakes, remakes, false advertisements etc.

 

Then again you can always make another topic about a blade you're considering:)

[Daso]

Thanks everyone. I've actually now narrowed my choice down to two papered blades. A signed Showa long walk and an unsigned papered koto blade. Tough choice.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Look for the quality, Darius. Can you see any sign of jihada on the wakizashi? On the katana?

 

Ken

 

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hmm, suggest taking a close look at and understand Tokubetsu Hozon requirements before deciding.

[Shugyosha]

Darius,

 

There is of course a third option: neither. I can pretty much guarantee that whatever you buy now you will look differently on 6-12 months down the line as your own knowledge increases and your taste develops. 

 

Wait a little and you'll know more, have more money in the bank and be able to choose something better. 

 

Best,

John

[Brian]

A long time and high end dealer once gave me advice that I have stuck to as far as I can. "Avoid low and mid level shinogi zukuri wakizashi in general. There are plenty out there, and they do not sell."
He has a point. At any time, you can pick up any number of low end shinogi zukuri wakizashi that are mumei or from low level smiths of all eras. Yes, you can learn a lot from a half decent wakizashi by a good smith but try and sell it later to upgrade your collection?

As a beginner, you are probably not looking for "keepers" at this point. Your collection will be evolving over time, and you need stuff you can trade up on as your tastes change. With the obvious exceptions of high end smiths or really good works in nice polish, you should choose a katana over a wakizashi if the workmanship is similar. Don't let the mumei thing bother you too much.

Also, Showa wakizashi? Which smith? Wakizashi are not all that common during that period.
 

[Daso]

A long time and high end dealer once gave me advice that I have stuck to as far as I can. "Avoid low and mid level shinogi zukuri wakizashi in general. There are plenty out there, and they do not sell."

He has a point. At any time, you can pick up any number of low end shinogi zukuri wakizashi that are mumei or from low level smiths of all eras. Yes, you can learn a lot from a half decent wakizashi by a good smith but try and sell it later to upgrade your collection?

As a beginner, you are probably not looking for "keepers" at this point. Your collection will be evolving over time, and you need stuff you can trade up on as your tastes change. With the obvious exceptions of high end smiths or really good works in nice polish, you should choose a katana over a wakizashi if the workmanship is similar. Don't let the mumei thing bother you too much.

Also, Showa wakizashi? Which smith? Wakizashi are not all that common during that period.

 

Brian, I've definitely taken everyone's advice into hand as a beginner and increased my budget to the best I could do. Will I want to get something new in a year or two, will my tastes change or will I find new smiths I like, absolutely. Taking all that into account I want to own my first sword and as long as I'm purchasing from a reputable dealer (even if not the bargain of the year), I still want to buy knowing that if I need, I can sell one and use it to fund another. I might keep this one for years who knows. The two swords in question now both have NBTHK Hozon papers, the long Wak (Showa) is by Tsukamoto Masakazu (signed) and has a almost 24" Nagasa in excellent condition or a Kiyomitsu Koto Katana ( unsigned) full polish 27" Nagasa papers say eiroku period 1558-1570. Both priced identically. The Masakazu has a more interesting Hamon but both are attractive blades. I always loved the idea of history and still gravitate to older swords due to my other swords from the bronze and iron ages. Any thoughts if I like both, but only one can come home. This would be my first and maybe I'll always keep it who knows. I still like to make as smart a first decision as possible while still owning and enjoying and learning from it as well. I will keep reading and learning more.

[w.y.chan]

When it comes to appraisal papers for gendaito and shinsakuto I consider it less important than for older blades, certainly would not influence my purchasing decision. Maybe times have changed because of fakes going around but still for those who collects swords from the last 100 years we can pretty much tell if the work is genuine to the smith because of documented record that are recent.

 

The level of paper alone should not decide on the market value. Prices varies from smith to smith rather than between eras or paper level.

 

Wah

[Jussi Ekholm]

Bizen Kiyomitsu? Kaga Kiyomitsu?

[Alex A]

Hi Darius, what ever you choose to do, now or in the future, try and look for sensible deals were you are more likely to see your money back when you come to sell.

 

Sometimes though, when you see something good that you really like, you may end up paying over the odds to get it, but I suppose that goes with any kind of collecting hobby.

 

Johns correct, your taste will change when you learn a bit more, the good news is, learnings a lot cheaper than buying!

[Surfson]

Hi Darius.  You have started an interesting thread.  You haven't told us if the Kiyomitsu is osuriage or not, how many holes in the tang etc.  If it is cut down from a tachi, then that is a big plus in my book.  Is the Kiyomitsu in suguha and is it pleasing to study?  Is there lots of subtle activity that you haven't discovered yet such as ashi or kogunome? Can you see any core steel on the Bizen blade indicating that it is tired?  To me, you are also considering the difference between a true samurai sword and a modern military blade.  At 24", the Masakazu is really meant to be a katana, and probably was made for a short officer.  From what you have said so far, for me, there is no question that I would go for the koto katana as opposed to a gendaito.  Having said that, there are plenty of gendaito collectors on this board that would disagree, and good gendaito can hold value well and can appreciate.  Cheers, Surf

[paulb]

As jussi says which Kiyomitsu? there is a lot of difference between them. Not only Bizen and Kaga but within the Bizen Kiyomitsu signatories there is a huge range of quality. At their best they exhbit some incredible work but the name also appears on the mass produced "bundle swords" and at the stated date this is a late work.

This is an impossible thing to do without description and images. It demonstrates in part the futility of trying to make a decision based on whether something is signed or has papers without seeing the sword or even a description of it.

Sorry Darius I am not trying to be neagative but other than the generalistions you already have I believe it impossible to offer anything meaningful without at least some images.

[Daso]

Hello all. I will post some images a bit later and greatly appreciate the response. I fully appreciate that I have generalized and can't expect too specific an answer (barring matters of personal taste). The boards help is invaluable. Can I compare the papers for the unsigned koto to my Sesko index I just got. One of three kiyomitsus I can tell for now from 1558-1570. Will add more later.

[Daso]

I've had some great advice from you all and a couple of experts I can't believe we're willing to assist me in considering and decided to g with the Kiyomitsu although the papers don't pin exactly which one it is. I've attached photos for your consideration as well. Would love feed back on it. The Hamon is not as exciting as others but I like its basic solid good condition.

[paulb]

Hi Darius

congratulations! as a first sword I think you have done very well and far better than many of us did in the past. For what it is worth given the choice you had between this and a showa wakazashi and the information you were ble to share, I think you made the right decision, but then again I am a koto enthusiast so cant claim not to be biased.

enjoy studying your new blade, from the images I think there is a lot to see.

regards

Paul

[Alex A]

Edit. 

[Daso]

Hi Darius

congratulations! as a first sword I think you have done very well and far bettjer than many of us did in the past. For what it is worth given the choice you had between this and a showa wakazashi and the information you were ble to share, I think you made the right decision, but then again I am a koto enthusiast so cant claim not to be biased.

enjoy studying your new blade, from the images I think there is a lot to see.

regards

Paul

Paul, thank you. even after looking at other swords as well it really became a confusing choice. With everyone's guidance I'm happy and feel confident that this was a good solid choice I won't have regrets about. Haha. When my budget allows I'll need some fittings for it.

 

Well done, you can find Markus,s Nihon-Shinto-shi write up online with the geneology of the Kiyomitsu school.

Plus index of Japanese swords.

Other stuff to find too.

Alex, appreciate it. I was attracted to some fancier Hamons but this sword just seemed well balanced (in my limited experience). I actually had a mind boggling time looking through the amount of Kiyomitsus in Markus' index which I got last week. Wow, that is three large tomes of info. Will definitely read the genealogy you mentioned online as well. I hope to contribute more to the board as I learn.

 

Darius

[Daso]

Hi Darius.  You have started an interesting thread.  You haven't told us if the Kiyomitsu is osuriage or not, how many holes in the tang etc.  If it is cut down from a tachi, then that is a big plus in my book.  Is the Kiyomitsu in suguha and is it pleasing to study?  Is there lots of subtle activity that you haven't discovered yet such as ashi or kogunome? Can you see any core steel on the Bizen blade indicating that it is tired?  To me, you are also considering the difference between a true samurai sword and a modern military blade.  At 24", the Masakazu is really meant to be a katana, and probably was made for a short officer.  From what you have said so far, for me, there is no question that I would go for the koto katana as opposed to a gendaito.  Having said that, there are plenty of gendaito collectors on this board that would disagree, and good gendaito can hold value well and can appreciate.  Cheers, Surf

 

Surfson,  So, the Katana I chose to go with is Osuriage with two holes in the tang.  That doesn't imply necessarily that it was cut down from a Tachi right?  It might just have been shortened for some reason.  As I am trying to learn from all, how could I know if it was a cut down Tachi or do the pictures I posted tell the story and if it was, why does that make it better in your book.  Thanks

 

Another question for all, since i can't read Japanese, how do I decipher and understand what the Hozon paper actually says?  Does the Hozon paper say Eiroku period?  I have a fair amount of books but any good source to understand what my hozon says exactly?  Laughably, I sent a photo to my friend in Tokyo and he wrote back that he couldn't read it.  Not sure why/

[Jussi Ekholm]

Hozon paper says 無銘 (長船清光) Unsigned (Osafune Kiyomitsu), length 2 shaku 2 sun - c. 66,66 cm

[Jussi Ekholm]

Do you have more pictures of the tang? My guess might be that the sword is shortened by the distance of holes (maybe 6-7 cm?).That would put the original length around 73 cm. Majority of Kiyomitsu smiths from Osafune were active From Tenbun to Tenshō 1532 - 1592. Blade length of 73 cm would be well fitting for that era.

[Darcy]

Good discussion.

 

I think the Showa wakizashi was probably intended as a small katana rather than a long wakizashi. Just guessing. 

 

At this point it's clarified as Osafune Kiyomitsu rather than Kaga. Osafune Kiyomitsu is between a school attribution and an individual attribution, isolating it to work of the line. So it's saying that the most reasonable conclusion is that one of the Kiyomitsu smiths made this but there is no significant work shown that would allow someone to say more than this (similar to the Umetada assessment in one of the other threads). 

 

For study, probably you will find more in studying Kiyomitsu than in a Showa work unless the Showa work was fine work by one of the top smiths of the period and in which case it would be also highly collectible. 

 

O-suriage mumei Muromachi works are not considered in the same category as older works where mumei is almost a standard situation. In the case of consideration for top level papers, Muromachi mumei works will not be accepted higher than Tokubetsu Hozon (or is it now Hozon? Someone will clarify). In looking at Juyo to Tokubetsu Juyo, an unsigned but otherwise mint condition blade may have better chances to pass Tokubetsu Juyo than a signed but less healthy blade for works older than Muromachi. But the price relationship does not necessarily follow the papers as there may be a relative abundance of healthy Tokuju blades compared to signed ones. Anyway this is not so relevant to the case in point. I'm just mainly wanting to make a distinction there there is not so much a clear dividing line gendai / shinshinto / shinto / koto when considering works like this, but it is more like gendai / shinshinto / shinto / momoyama / muromachi / nanbokucho-kamakura / heian 

 

Each one of these groupings will have different levels of condition that are considered poor, adequate, or exceptional. An exceptional condition Shinshinto blade is maybe on its first polish, flawless, showing ububa and no alterations of any sort and a beautifully finished nakago with nothing impaired. An exceptional condition Heian blade is just going to be ubu and signed and you have a unicorn right there.

 

Adequate condition in regards to mumei is at the line between the Kamakura-Nanbokucho group and Muromachi. This blade being suriage and in the Muromachi group means it is below adequate condition. As such then as a buying target it is purely based on bang for the buck in what you can see and where you are in the scope of beginner to advanced student and the acceptance that reselling in this condition is difficult as you have bought from the bottommost part of the category (ideally then you saved a bunch of money in recognition of the condition). Anywhere above Muromachi you need to accept that mumei and/or suriage are major detractors from value. Below they are standard and the signature being there is a big bonus. 

 

Ultimately if your goal is to keep your spending down and get a blade that will let you learn what a sword is, and what koto Bizen looks like and to start internalizing it, it's OK. If it is the best sword you can comfortably get with the budget you've set, this is OK too, as long as again you're not worried about getting rid of it. But it's not the kind of thing to go horizontally and extend into a collection because you will end up with a large quantity of problems rather than a small quantity of excellence. 

 

Also some people who start with swords at the top level but are not serious about them end up ruining the blade. If you are unsure of your level of commitment to caring for such a thing, a blade like this can be advisably better to start with. But if you're committed usually the best thing you can do for yourself is to buy the best and most complete package that you can, and this will retain desirability down the line more than a problematic piece. This is the reason why you don't want to go wide and long horizontally with similar types of pieces. The same expenditure will get you a better experience as a collector to get a better blade, no matter what level you're collecting at. 

 

Illustrating the point: 200 rust buckets out of polish could cost you $20,000. You would be better off spending the $20k in a good sword that is in polish by a talented smith from any period. This is the exaggerated description of wide and horizontal vs. narrow and vertical. Every collection though falls into the same parameters, even if you say bought 200 Juyo blades by middling schools that barely passed Juyo you would have an expense say of around 9 million dollars. If you were to approach collecting with a budget of 9 million dollars you could get some of the true masterpieces of all time by the top smiths. And somewhere in the region of 15 of the best swords in existence. 

 

An ideal collection is going to find some kind of balance between quantity and quality. As soon as you start going too far horizontal, trimming the fat and edging the quality up will make your collection better for study, more interesting for others to experience, and better for retaining value. 

[Alex A]

Whopps, Bizen, not Kaga, was on autopilot, sorry Darius, ignore that.......

[Daso]

Good discussion.

 

I think the Showa wakizashi was probably intended as a small katana rather than a long wakizashi. Just guessing. 

 

At this point it's clarified as Osafune Kiyomitsu rather than Kaga. Osafune Kiyomitsu is between a school attribution and an individual attribution, isolating it to work of the line. So it's saying that the most reasonable conclusion is that one of the Kiyomitsu smiths made this but there is no significant work shown that would allow someone to say more than this (similar to the Umetada assessment in one of the other threads). 

 

For study, probably you will find more in studying Kiyomitsu than in a Showa work unless the Showa work was fine work by one of the top smiths of the period and in which case it would be also highly collectible. 

 

O-suriage mumei Muromachi works are not considered in the same category as older works where mumei is almost a standard situation. In the case of consideration for top level papers, Muromachi mumei works will not be accepted higher than Tokubetsu Hozon (or is it now Hozon? Someone will clarify). In looking at Juyo to Tokubetsu Juyo, an unsigned but otherwise mint condition blade may have better chances to pass Tokubetsu Juyo than a signed but less healthy blade for works older than Muromachi. But the price relationship does not necessarily follow the papers as there may be a relative abundance of healthy Tokuju blades compared to signed ones. Anyway this is not so relevant to the case in point. I'm just mainly wanting to make a distinction there there is not so much a clear dividing line gendai / shinshinto / shinto / koto when considering works like this, but it is more like gendai / shinshinto / shinto / momoyama / muromachi / nanbokucho-kamakura / heian 

 

Each one of these groupings will have different levels of condition that are considered poor, adequate, or exceptional. An exceptional condition Shinshinto blade is maybe on its first polish, flawless, showing ububa and no alterations of any sort and a beautifully finished nakago with nothing impaired. An exceptional condition Heian blade is just going to be ubu and signed and you have a unicorn right there.

 

Adequate condition in regards to mumei is at the line between the Kamakura-Nanbokucho group and Muromachi. This blade being suriage and in the Muromachi group means it is below adequate condition. As such then as a buying target it is purely based on bang for the buck in what you can see and where you are in the scope of beginner to advanced student and the acceptance that reselling in this condition is difficult as you have bought from the bottommost part of the category (ideally then you saved a bunch of money in recognition of the condition). Anywhere above Muromachi you need to accept that mumei and/or suriage are major detractors from value. Below they are standard and the signature being there is a big bonus. 

 

Ultimately if your goal is to keep your spending down and get a blade that will let you learn what a sword is, and what koto Bizen looks like and to start internalizing it, it's OK. If it is the best sword you can comfortably get with the budget you've set, this is OK too, as long as again you're not worried about getting rid of it. But it's not the kind of thing to go horizontally and extend into a collection because you will end up with a large quantity of problems rather than a small quantity of excellence. 

 

Also some people who start with swords at the top level but are not serious about them end up ruining the blade. If you are unsure of your level of commitment to caring for such a thing, a blade like this can be advisably better to start with. But if you're committed usually the best thing you can do for yourself is to buy the best and most complete package that you can, and this will retain desirability down the line more than a problematic piece. This is the reason why you don't want to go wide and long horizontally with similar types of pieces. The same expenditure will get you a better experience as a collector to get a better blade, no matter what level you're collecting at. 

 

Illustrating the point: 200 rust buckets out of polish could cost you $20,000. You would be better off spending the $20k in a good sword that is in polish by a talented smith from any period. This is the exaggerated description of wide and horizontal vs. narrow and vertical. Every collection though falls into the same parameters, even if you say bought 200 Juyo blades by middling schools that barely passed Juyo you would have an expense say of around 9 million dollars. If you were to approach collecting with a budget of 9 million dollars you could get some of the true masterpieces of all time by the top smiths. And somewhere in the region of 15 of the best swords in existence. 

 

An ideal collection is going to find some kind of balance between quantity and quality. As soon as you start going too far horizontal, trimming the fat and edging the quality up will make your collection better for study, more interesting for others to experience, and better for retaining value. 

Darcy,

 

Thank you for the thorough response.  I guess this all plays into where the price of these items fall. Based on your very helpful description I'm not sure whether I should be less excited about the choice i made or happy with it based on the value to quality ratio even if it is not a standout piece, but rather a solid example of a good koto blade (not fantastic, but without flaws, with papers and in full polish).  I could have spent anywhere from $800 on ebay to $10,000 (way way out of budget) and ended up in the lower range (i don't want to break any rules discussing price if not allowed).  My main goal is to 1) enjoy the blade, stare at it, learn from it, show it and see where it goes from there, my second goal was to not get ripped off.  Hopefully I have come close to these two goals and based on the price I purchased it, hopefully it is within the range I can recoup a reasonable amount of it when the time comes for me to upgrade to a greater blade or greater significance.  Maybe I'll just love this one and keep it.  Great explanation from you and I appreciate the time you took to explain.  

[Surfson]

Daso, I think you did very, very well with this as your first sword!  When I think about all the junk swords that I bought and sold (often at a loss), I am very envious that you had the discipline and self control to study the matter and come up with an excellent choice.  We all tell newbies that the best thing to do is buy books and get smart before buying swords.  That is easy to say, but I would hazard to guess that most of us didn't do it this way.  You bought a true samurai sword with a 500 year history.  How I wish my swords would each have a thumb drive with a virtual reality tour of the events that they witnessed!  As far as I can see, the sword is healthy, has a solid habuchi, plenty of activity to enjoy in the hamon, and a nice jihada.  It's not super long, but is a decent length, and probably a decent heft in the hand.  I can't see any core steel in the photos you sent, so it doesn't seem tired.  Assuming that you paid a reasonable price for it, you will not have a problem finding an eager next owner when and if you decide to sell it.  

[Jamie]

 

I think you chose well, of the two you mentioned. You'll have a decent, papered katana. When you go to sell, it will be easier than selling a later period wakazashi.

Enjoy your sword.