What do these menukis show

[AndreasU]

Hello Members,

 

I was on a weapon Tradeshow today in Kassel/Germany. I had the hope to find a nice gendai koshirae for me, but unfortunately there was only junk well overpriced. These guys really think because it is of Japanese origin they can get wahtever price they are asking for.....

 

There was one finnish seller that had really impressive swords. Unfortunately I am lausy in reading kanjis so I could not identify the smidth. But it had a reall nice hamon, like a regulary heartbeat wave pattern. very nice!

 

 

So I ended up with these menukis. Can someone who is more familiar with these try to explain what I got?

 

Here are the pics:

P.S. US$ 148!

[Bungo]

some god of fortunes.......one with bale of rice and the other with the tai fish.

check the switcheroo message thread and you'll see my " fishy " sword.

 

http://www.esnips.com/doc/1025e92a-98cc ... fc/tai0311

 

p.s. I am sure Nobody san can come up with the proper names of the two dudes.

milt the flying ronin

[Ford Hallam]

The chappie struggling with the fish ( a tai, or bream) is known as Ebisu and the fellla with the large mallet is known as Daikoku. They are 2 of the 7 "gods" of good fortune. These 2 are more specifically concerned with material wealth and prosperity so I would suggest a more "common" taste as opposed to austere Samurai aesthetics.

[Bungo]

These 2 are more specifically concerned with material wealth and prosperity so I would suggest a more "common" taste as opposed to austere Samurai aesthetics.

 

All elites ( past and present, and well into the future )were/ are/will be about " money "........

too austere and they winded up like Saigo ( actual )or that dude that was ordered to commit sappuku ( spelling ? ) with a bamboo tsunagi ( fictional )....... :x

 

milt the flying ronin

[Nobody]

They are Daikokuten (大黒天) and Ebisu (恵比寿) as already explained.

 

For more information;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daikokuten

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebisu_%28mythology%29

[Guest reinhard]

Bungo wrote:

All elites ( past and present, and well into the future )were/ are/will be about " money ".

You confuse two things: Making money, getting rich is one thing and many samurai fought for this goal. Displaying it to the public, by kodogu for example, is another. Ford is right: true samurai spirit, displayed either in swords-blades, horimono or kodogu is austere with a deeper quality at second sight. The idea of displaying the owners wealth or to ask the gods of material fortune for assistance came up during peaceful Edo-period and was somewhat despised by warriors, who stuck to the old ideals.

A samurai of higher education always tried to express his personality by qualities, which were not visible at first sight. Visible only for the educated with a trained eye.

It is easy to imagine one of the rich merchants of Osaka displaying a spectacular koshirae with all the gods of material luck added to it and nevertheless being despised by the educated samurai for his vulgarity.

[Bungo]

lol, I don't have a very romantic views of the samurai of old esp. reading history and all that loyalty to the lords and all......but switched side on the battlefields ( as Sakigahara, spelling ? )

Even Mother theresa had had her doubts, and she was very austere....

 

but then My mind is moving tangentially ( as always ).

 

milt the flying ronin

[Pete Klein]

this is taken from an article written by Jim Gilbert at this link:

http://home.earthlink.net/~jggilbert/KyoOwari.htm

 

Regarding samurai fashion, Alan Kennedy writes in his Japanese Costume, History and Tradition: “The Keicho kenbunki of 1614 provides an account… related to dress, ‘Not only the great warlords of today but warriors of every class are concerned with beauty, wearing colorfully woven and embroidered fine silks. The warriors also decorate themselves according to their status, carefully making up their appearance, and spending all their pay on clothing.’â€

[Bungo]

Pete,

interesting article............

a few fellow kodogu collectors had a discussion on this subject back at the Chicago show.

I have a pair of sukashi tsuba of kiri design, one is " austere " .....like wabi/sabi, just like the example shown in Sasano's book ( same design ), while the other one, of same design has gold nunome ( mostly gone , but in it's original state, must be quite showy ).

The agrument is............... is the gold nunome original or a later add on ?

 

Isn't it true Sasano was the scholar that played up to this wabi/sabi taste as " preferred " by serious collector ( esp. gaijin collectors ) ?

 

Feel free to correct me as my mind is way out in space ( Officially RETIRED from private practice as of yesterday :lol: )

 

http://www.esnips.com/web/tsuba?docsPage=48#files

 

milt the flying ronin

[Pete Klein]

Happy retirement Milt -- for as long as it lasts! LOL Just remember that song from Mary Poppins, 'Step in time, step in time, every body step in time!!!'

 

Anyway, let's remember that there was field wear, city wear and court wear, and it all depended on rank. Also by the late Ashikaga Jidai warfare had switched over to guns so the sword was not as important. Gold accents (on iron - not on kinko) are usually associated with the Kyoto makers so -- city wear. Into Edo as the samurai went into the transition of becomming the shogunal enforcers the sword (Dai-Sho) became important as a symbol of position and authority so the appearance of many new pieces of varying styles emerged. Those revered pre-Edo wabi-sabi pieces were produced for a different era where warfare was the norm. In any case the Sen no Rikyou tea taste

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sen_no_Riky%C5%AB

was late Ashikaga into Momoyama and reflected in the Nobuie, Hoan, Owari etc. guards of the day. Interestingly they were found on Tensho koshirae with Goto menuki and kogai. I believe we far too often over romanticize the samurai as being far too rustic and austere as there demeanor apparently did not always transfer into their attire.

 

PS: attached are court wear or merchant wear, Goto (probably Renjo)

[Bungo]

and of course we have that " monkey face " Hideyoshi who sponsored one of the great tea master ( rustic und austere ), have a gold tea hut ( that's NOT rustic by any stretch of the imagination ) and later ordered the same tea master to commit seppaku...................

 

NEVER agrue with your lord about " taste "............

 

like I said once, even an austere monk needs a hearty red once in a while.

 

milt the flying ronin

[AndreasU]

So beside the discussion you fellows had, which I partly do not understand because my english isn't that good..., you are saying that these menukis are not typical "samurai style"

 

So my extract then, or speculation is, that these menukis where made around late edo time where it became more peaceful in Japan?

 

Interesting anyway because the sword I would like to use them for is from around 1750 which would be a nice fit then!

 

YES, I don't want to collect them as single pieces, I try to find period matching Kodogu to complete the sword and get a koshirae made for it

 

So if anyone has some fuchi kashira from that period and a nice hefty tsuba for a wakizashi, I am open for offers.

 

Hefty because the sword is also a very strong piece!

Blade length : 45.7cm or 18.0nches.


Sori : 0.9cm or 0.354@inches.


Width at the hamachi : 2.985cm or 1.175inches.


Width at the Kissaki: 2.31cm or 0.91 inches


Kasane : 0.85cm or 0.335 inches.

Era : late Edo period (1740 – 1760).

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Andreas,

 

yes, it seems your menuki did start an interesting discussion. The point I was making though had more to do with the subject matter shown. As Nobody San's links tell us, this pair were regarded as the patron gods of small shop-keepers. I don't think any self respecting member of the samurai class would display such obviously merchant taste and concern for money.

 

Pete's post in fact points to the desire of the samurai class to mantain social distinctions. These menuki can be seen as very obvious merchant badges so I have my doubts about them being used by a member of the warrior class, regardless of the circumstances.

 

I share Milt's unromantic view of the warrior class ( of all cultures!) but never-the-less I believe certain design elements would be practically taboo. Such an obvious merchant design is a perfect example. Whatever a persons real desires and concerns are we often keep them well hidden and display a socially acceptable face to the world. This was nowhere more true than in Edo period Japan.

 

Also, when I used the word "austere" I meant more in terms of the philosophy behind the choices samurai might make. Certainly not all samurai avoided more elaborate and showy kodogu but still, the subject matter would be carefully considered in terms of what it might say about the owner.

 

regards, Ford

[AndreasU]

OK I can follow this.

 

So pracmatic way of thinking: Menukis never where made for using them on doors, shoes, hats or whatsoever.

 

Will say, menukis were always made to get more "grip" on the swords handle to avoid that it slips out of the hand while in fight.

 

Self protection was always an issue but I doubt that a "standard" citizen in this period wa able to buy a sword that was "flowerish" equipped.

 

So at least it needed money to have menukis like that. Money was only found in "upper class" or these things were given form a Clan leader to one of his followers.

 

So at least I end up with a sumarai?

 

But anyway thats all speculation because except the very few samples of swords where the guy it was made for is mentioned and can be tracked down to a samurai line, all of our swords could have been used from "simple" citizen at all, simple soldiers, traders, or even as a family treasure to protect the household.

 

Prove me that I am wrong but always thinking that all swords we own were made for Samurais is exactly the same way wrong saying that a specific style of menukis would not be used from them......

[Ford Hallam]

actually Andreas,

 

in the Edo period, with the rise of the merchant class and the increase in their wealth, (sometimes even being money lenders to the samurai class themselves), it was not uncommon for these non-samurai to own and wear short swords. This was obviously an exception to the ban on commoners owning long swords.

 

Many of these very wealthy merchants seem to have been quite proud of their status they seem to have felt no particular affection for the usual samurai aesthetic and so we have the flowering of the machi-bori artists as they begun to work in less "millitary" style. The machibori ( town carvers, lit) can be seen as responding very strongly to this new fashion and produced many works to satisfy the taste of their new customers. Perhaps this is why so many of the more "common" designs on fuchi and kashira are on wakizashi size fittings?

[AndreasU]

Hi Ford,

 

This underscores what I am saying, that most of our swords maybe were not used from Samurais at all.....

 

in this case, I don't mind if I have a hefty "merchant style equipped" wakizashi that is healthy and shows that the swordsmith did know what it was suggested for :D

[Bungo]

Andreas,

Your menuki are authentic........just not what " Yojimbo " would prefer to have on his sword.

 

I read an article in the to-ren ( N. Cal. sword club publication ) a few years back. As Pete mentioned, just like now , fashion changed with time.

Around late Edo, Meiji period, you can't find iron " austere " tsuba in tsuba shops , reason was no one wanted them so the shop keeper did not stock them............or you can interpret those tsuba were not available because all collector kept them in their private chests and not for sale.

 

 

milt the flying ronin