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[Bugyotsuji]

Hello all. Just joined this site recently. The site is full of wisdom and knowledge and my essential aim is to learn from it, or should I say from you all. If I offend or annoy, that is generally not my intention, though I may bridle at someone's tone occasionally.

 

Even though I am weak in the area of swords and fittings and even though my closest adviser and friend in Japan has warned me to stay clear of Nihonto, I find myself fascinated by them. Recently I have discovered that even though I speak, read and write Japanese fairly passably, I have trouble learning the vocabulary of arms and armor/armour straight from the Japanese Kanji, whereas I seem to be able to get closer to it and learn the language more quickly through English. (No hesitation for example on how such and such a Kanji is pronounced in a particular context or combination of words, since some kind soul has already done that work for me.)

 

By the same token I have certain strengths which would normally become apparent in the course of posting. You must all be wondering who I am and where I come from; am I one of your stalkers/swindlers that I read about here, or will I be able to have a role to play here.

 

Without wanting to say too much in this age of identity fraud, and not really wanting to post my true name or even initials (although I do understand the forum rules) I do want you to feel comfortable with me here, and I am willing to go towards that.

 

So, and this is where I get hounded out, ... I've got my coat in one hand, ... deep breath...my main approach to Japanese arms has been through Tanegashima, Japanese matchlocks. I belong to a Castle Matchlock Company in Japan and have to dress in full Katchu several times a year. Most of us are antique collectors, and most of what we wear and display is genuine. Our guns are Edo or earlier and we use matchcord and black powder. If we wear a sword for a live display, however, in the saya will be the tsunagi, since a member of the public might possibly pull it out.

 

Thank you for reading!

[John A Stuart]

Hi Piers, Sounds like a gas. I wonder since this is your hobby, is it accurate to say 'teppo' are named after the rolling fireballs used against attackers by being rolled onto them down an entrenchment by the besieged. John

[Bugyotsuji]

Hi Piers, Sounds like a gas. I wonder since this is your hobby, is it accurate to say 'teppo' are named after the rolling fireballs used against attackers by being rolled onto them down an entrenchment by the besieged. John

 

Ouch, John, that takes me to the limit of my passive knowledge and I feel an urge to go and double-check what comes to my fingertips.

 

All fire-weapons can be traced back to ancient times, and the Chinese exercised thier imagination with how to send burning things at their enemies, as did the Romans and Greeks. I think the 'po' part of teppo (Chinese Bao/Pao) was a sort of bursting ball of gunpowder in a container (grenade) and the Mongols hurled these at the surprised Samurai defenders in Hakata Bay in Kyushu in the late 1200s. There's a famous painting of a horse being disembowelled by one.

 

But thinking about what you have suggested, even these must have come conceptually from a burning ball. I think it's the tetsu- part of teppou, that suggests confining the flames in a container, /wood/paper/porcelain....maybe metal later. The next question is do you hurl the whole thing like a rocket, or do you discharge the contents and keep the cylinder?

[Bugyotsuji]

Interestingly we end up with three words for a gun, one being ju 銃　as in matchlock gun 火縄銃, one being tsutsu 筒 (tube) and one being teppo or tetsu po 鉄砲. My feeling is that the Chinese stuck with their word Bao/Pao (J po) and another word Qiang (fire lance) and the Japanese went more for alternative Kanji.

 

One example is an early three-barrelled pole gun I have in my possession.

It was created and used in China some time before Hideyoshi went to war there, and the Chinese called it a three-tubed Bao, or sanshinbao(J po). The Japanese warriors facing it in Korea and China called it a three-eyed gun, sanganju, or 三眼銃.

[Gabriel L]

Welcome to the forum, Piers. I cannot tell you how helpful a working knowledge of Japanese will be, even though the relevant vocabulary is specialized and even unrecognizably old. I'm jealous anyway .

 

Why on earth would your friend discourage you from pursuing nihonto? :lol: Unless it's because of the expen$e, of course - but it's not as if antique matchlocks are a dime a dozen either. Seriously, nihonto is a rewarding study, full of artistry, history, and even science.

 

If it's not too OT (Brian?) I'm sure we'd all love to see photos of your collection.

 

Cheers,

-GLL

[Bugyotsuji]

Welcome to the forum, Piers. I cannot tell you how helpful a working knowledge of Japanese will be, even though the relevant vocabulary is specialized and even unrecognizably old. I'm jealous anyway .

 

Why on earth would your friend discourage you from pursuing nihonto? :lol: Unless it's because of the expen$e, of course - but it's not as if antique matchlocks are a dime a dozen either. Seriously, nihonto is a rewarding study, full of artistry, history, and even science.

 

If it's not too OT (Brian?) I'm sure we'd all love to see photos

Cheers,

-GLL

 

Gabriel, thank you.

 

1. I was happy and surprised to see that you have a real expert here called 'Nobody'. I like Nobody and his posts, and I hope he stays here.

 

2. My friend spent over a million dollars on priceless swords but in the long run found that the dealers made huge profits from his purchases and paid a lot less when he tried to cash them in. He says it's a mug's game, and it's full of 'Kitsune & Tanuki'. He even tries to stop me buying Tsuba. So, ssshhh... nowadays I have learned that this is one area where I will have to move silently and secretly whenever I see something that I really like. It's a pity, as he has such a vast and deep knowledge, but there is something bitter there.

 

3. Photos. Possibly, after I start to feel a little confidence here, a photo might be in order. Strictly blades, though! (I noticed in the intro blurb that anything to do with Samurai and that period are all right. Guns can be a slightly delicate area though... :lol: )

[Brian]

Well..since I am a gun collector and enthusiast, discussions and pics of antique tanegashima are more than welcome here. I am still after one myself, but they are big $'s.

As long as any discussions stay around the art and historical aspect they will be fine. They are, afterall, a crucial part of the history of Japan and even the later developments of swordsmanship.

 

Brian

[Stephen]

FYI

RIA auction coming up, im free if you want to hire me to go and bid for you.

http://www.rockislandauction.com/ad_pop.aspx?cid=12705

 

http://www.rockislandauction.com/ad_pop.aspx?cid=12667

[Brian]

Oh my goodness! I am in love! :D

You shouldn't have shown me that Stephen. wow.

I would love one of those pistols, not even the most fancy ones...just a nice representative example.

Are there many of the swords from this collection going on auction too? I will have to look at the catalog, but auctions like this are a far better bet for the buyers than Christies and Sothebys when it comes to possible bargains.

 

Hmm.....

 

Brian

[Bugyotsuji]

Well..since I am a gun collector and enthusiast, discussions and pics of antique tanegashima are more than welcome here. I am still after one myself, but they are big $'s.

As long as any discussions stay around the art and historical aspect they will be fine. They are, afterall, a crucial part of the history of Japan and even the later developments of swordsmanship.

 

Brian

 

Well, that's good news! :lol:

 

In the early days of pitched battles, mid 1500s, before gunnery tactics had been thoroughly worked out, the reloading gunners would get cut down by the kiba-tai samurai cavalry, so they were sandwiched by ashigaru with those long yari.

 

And, art I think we can handle that too! :D Thanks Brian!

 

PS Stephen. Some of those guns look good, but there are a few dodgy ones there at first glance! No 2 down of the long guns for example, looks like it's had the barrel and stock shortened for some reason, probably recently. Is there any way to get a closer look at them from all angles? Is there any paperwork with them?

[Stephen]

alot of Chi town buyers will be there, i doubt that they have papers, and more that a few look dodgy, i still think a find or two can be had...a few swords too at this link

http://www.rockislandauction.com/ad_pop.aspx?cid=12625

for the full page go here

http://www.rockislandauction.com/auctio ... spx?aid=42

 

also do a search with Japanese some nice Nambu and other items.

[Justin]

Welcome to the forum Piers.

 

I have a matchlock that I am trying to research at the moment.

 

The bottom of the barrel is signed 'Goshu Kunitomo Kojuro Tosetsu' and also has the character 'Tsuji' on the side. The top of the barrel has the characters for 'Motoshige' and the stock is signed 'Kunitomo Matashiro Masatoshi' and also has the 'Tsuji' character on the side of the stock.

 

Do you have any idea what the tsuji character means? I understand it is a name, but I am not sure. It is separate to the rest of the mei.

 

I can post some pictures if anyone is interested. It is a long slender gun that looks like it might have belonged to a high ranking samurai warrior rather than those used by the ashigaru. It has the kashiwa (oak leaf) mon inlayed in silver on the barrel.

 

Regards

Justin

[Stephen]

Pic's are always welcome, would like to see as many as youd like to share.

 

Pires forgot to say !!

[IanB]

All,

See: Needham J, Science and Civilisation in China, Vol5, Part7 The Gunpowder Epic, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1986, for a fully referenced, comprehensive acount of early Chinese and Japanese use of gunpowder and guns. He also discusses tetsubo as used in the Mongol Invasion, but this was before some were actually found in Hataka Bay.

 

As for the bajo zutsu, they are interesting and I too would love to own one, but think for a moment how useless a matchlock pistol really is. What do you do with the match until you need it for the fast draw?

 

Ian

[Justin]

Some photos of my teppo are attached. It is a bit too long to photograph the whole gun. I hope this gives you a bit of an idea. Anyone know what the stamp on the lock means? I assume this is just the stamp of the kunitomo school. It is also stamped on the inside of the lock. Everything is complete on this teppo except two of the pins are missing.

 

Regards

Justin

[Justin]

More pics.

[Bugyotsuji]

Aaarrgghh... too much and no time to look or reply. Oh.. oh... oh....

 

Friday evening and we're off to Mt Fuji in 20 mins for the weekend. All night drive to the circuit. Won't be able to see a computer until Monday! Will see the new GTR in GT500 guise, though!

 

Tsuji is puzzling. Unless a large order to one of the Osaka/Negoro gunsmiths came through to Kunitomo and this was marked for them... gotta think on that one! The Settsu Shibatsuji èŠè¾» smiths used that character for example.

 

Phone not rung yet so I've had another peek. Nice to see the unusual locksmith's mark there. There's an area to investigate. You have chosen not to polish the shinchu serpentine and lock. Are there a couple of characters on the barrel near the rear site, on the left, (jinshin bango?) Hope your pics are still up when I get back...

 

Car still not here yet. So... Ian, I am most impressed that (and jealous) that you were with the Royal Armouries in Leeds. You must have a special brain, and extraordinary abilities. I've been making friends with the Wallace Collection people when I'm over in London. Our Castle Matchlock Company are the only one in Japan with all the members carrying and firing Tanzutsu or Bajouzutsu. They were very rare and I believe only India (?) and Japan ever made matchlock pistols. 100-1 type of ratio and only carried by higher ranks. We are taught to switch the burning match from our left arm to the right for firing the pistol. It would give that vital second shot if your enemy continued coming at you before you could reload your Tanegashima.

 

There are quite a few very clever modern fakes going around, but extremely hard to find a good genuine one in working order because people will not sell them. They are generally more expensive than long guns, too, nowadays.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Fantastic thread.

 

One example is an early three-barrelled pole gun I have in my possession.

It was created and used in China some time before Hideyoshi went to war there, and the Chinese called it a three-tubed Bao, or sanshinbao(J po). The Japanese warriors facing it in Korea and China called it a three-eyed gun, sanganju, or 三眼銃.

 

Japanese versions :

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Some lovely pictures here. I can see that I will have to jack up my camera skills before I post here.

 

And Carlo, you have one of the rarest of the rare there by the looks of it. I have heard rumours of one, possibly two that are outside Japan, and one in Japan, and another couple of varieties that come up on auction that are very clever fakes. What book is that in your hand?

[Justin]

Hi Piers,

 

The characters on the barrel say 'Motoshige'. I thought this might have been the name of the owner. I also think Motoshige may belong to one of the clans that used the oak leaf (kashiwa) mon.

 

From my research to date, the following families used this mon: Kubota, Matsuda, Nishikigori, Ogihara and Makino.

 

Which clan owned this gun is anyones guess, but I would appreciate any feedback.

 

Regards

Justin

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Some lovely pictures here. I can see that I will have to jack up my camera skills before I post here.

 

And Carlo, you have one of the rarest of the rare there by the looks of it. I have heard rumours of one, possibly two that are outside Japan, and one in Japan, and another couple of varieties that come up on auction that are very clever fakes. What book is that in your hand?

 

 

:lol: HAHAHA... Piers, I wish it was mine ! It's of a friend of mine that

purchased it sometime ago. Fantasctic piece.

 

The book is also of my friend.

[Bugyotsuji]

Although, looking at it closely now, it looks like two different guns. I wondered what it was that was bothering me! Which one is your friend's, Carlo?

 

As you know, the Japanese get quite stuffy about Zogan. If the piece is highly decorated then it's 'Hamamono', originally sold to rich Westerners 100/150 years ago. (Except for the highly-decorated ones owned by the top Daimyo in the best museums.) Decoration suggests the flowery middle period of Edo, or later additions to please foreigners. Even a Mon on the top of the barrel will be subjected to scrutiny, since many were slapped on later, and indeed continue to be so even today. (Not a cheap order, though, I hear.)

 

Early guns tended to be plainer and more businesslike; then the latest castle matchlocks in the years before Commodore Perry arrived were again for the defense/defence of Japan. Thus we find the more plain but solid 'gunyouzutsu', carrying 300 years of refinement and evolution within the matchlock parameter. These are the ones that the Castle Matchlock Display Troops tend to search out.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

I believe it is the first one.

The pics are 5 years old from a sale he was following.

He's not italian, we correspond via the net. I've saved them because

of they are very beautiful.

[Bugyotsuji]

I believe it is the first one.

The pics are 5 years old from a sale he was following.

He's not italian, we correspond via the net. I've saved them because

of they are very beautiful.

 

Carlo, your pictures are so beautiful that I cannot possibly post my Chinese three-barrelled gun any more! There is nothing artistic about it, although historically it is of interest. Some years ago I went to Yasukuni and asked them to show me theirs, (never nowadays on display), which after some hesitation they very kindly did. They ushered me to a small viewing room and brought it out of the storeroom wearing white gloves, & even allowed me to take photos of it, so that I could compare it with my own! :lol:

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Some years ago I went to Yasukuni and asked them to show me theirs, (never nowadays on display), which after some hesitation they very kindly did. They ushered me to a small viewing room and brought it out of the storeroom wearing white gloves, & even allowed me to take photos of it, so that I could compare it with my own! :lol:

 

PICTURES !! Seems to me they are pertinent to the thread, if you

wish to share them...

[Bugyotsuji]

With luck this should be a pic of the Yasukuni three-barrelled gun, in their museum for 150 years.

[Bugyotsuji]

And this is mine alongside some spears to give a sense of size and function...

[Bugyotsuji]

Justin, I've had another little look at your gun and various things suggest themselves. If anyone wishes to contradict, then please feel free.

 

It looks fairly late, say 1820-1850? It looks like a 侍筒　Shizutsu samurai gun, or a 軍用筒 Gunyozutsu military gun, with decorations added at some point. Do you know how many Monme the bore or calibre/calibre is/are? You say it is a slim barrel? Hope for a minimum of 4 Monme, but 6 if poss. Kunitomo and Osaka have a lot in common and sometimes it's hard to tell them apart. Kunitomo has a certain 'feel', but Osaka is generally more flashy and in your face. The wide brass band is one sign of Osaka, as are the brass animal plates. One possibility has to be that yours is a Settsu gun and the barrel was made by your Kunitomo-trained smith. He doesn't use the character 住 juu, for 'living in/at', so he may have been working in Osaka at the time. There were Kunitomo smiths resident, working and signing 国友 all over the country.

 

On the other hand, the shape of this gun does not shout Osaka to me. It could well be Kunitomo.

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Piers, would you mind if me or John post the pics of your chinese gun

in a Samurai histoy related forum ?

It's interesting.

[Bugyotsuji]

Piers, would you mind if me or John post the pics of your chinese gun

in a Samurai histoy related forum ?

It's interesting.

 

Not at all, Carlo! Thank you for asking, though. I appreciate it.