The Mysterious "w" Stamp!

[Austus]

I answered a local Craigslist ad and made a deal with the grandson of the Vet that brought it back. He tried to back out of the deal and wanted to put on ebay where he probably could have gotten a whole lot more for it. When I reminded him that we had a deal, he stepped up and Honored it. I have his grandfather's name and his business card.

[Brian]

Lol. All this fuss over what is most likely a poorly stamped or half removed "Showa" stamp. It's the top part of one.
And the mei remainder makes it pretty clear this is a Seki Showato. Those mei don't lie.
Sorry to burst bubbles, but this one is pretty certain imho.

[Brian]

I may have come across a little strong in my "Aha!" moment. Hope I didn't kill the debate.
No opinions on whether I am crazy or if I am right on this?

[16k]

No worries, Brian,

 

We continued our conversation via PM. As I said, it was off topic, so better discussed somewhere else to leave this thread focused on just the W mark.

[Austus]

I came to this forum for answers, and got some really good ones. Not terribly concerned if they weren't sugar-coated. Would have helped if I had gotten all my ducks in a row before jumping into the fray.

This site is an incredible source of knowledge and information. I'll be quietly lurking in the shadows.

[Kiipu]

The three markings below were used by the Imperial Japanese Army during World War 2.  Two of the three show up on military swords.

 

1. The star inspection mark used for material inspection.  It shows up on some military swords. I have not seen this mark used on other items though.

 

2. The chevron marking (山形 yamagata) as used on swords is a partial (or halfway) inspection mark used by the Imperial Japanese Army.  It shows up on army arsenal or civilian factory made ordnance items.  This marking is not specific to any one location but can be used by any factory.  The stamp was used from 1941 to the end of the war in 1945.  This is a common stamp and can be found on just about any item made during 1941 to 1945.

 

3. The X mark denotes failure to pass inspection.  For this reason, it is seldom seen. However, toward the end of the war some of these parts were put to use.  I have seen them used on some late war rifles that were unserialized.

 

Works Consulted

Japan. Rikugunshō 陸軍省 (War Ministry). Rikugun Heiki Gyōsei Honbu 陸軍兵器行政本部 (Army Ordnance Administration Headquarters). Ken’in oyobi hyōshiki kitei 檢印及標識規定 (Regulations for Inspection Marks and Signs). General Order 2389. 19 October 1943.

[16k]

Now, that seems to be a real breakthrough!

[Bruce Pennington]

 

 

 
2. The chevron marking (山形 yamagata) as used on swords is a partial (or halfway) inspection mark used by the Imperial Japanese Army.  It shows up on army arsenal or civilian factory made ordnance items.  This marking is not specific to any one location but can be used by any factory.  The stamp was used from 1941 to the end of the war in 1945.  This is a common stamp and can be found on just about any item made during 1941 to 1945.

Kiipu - is that your name? If not, as per forum rules, could you please go to your personal settings and set a first name into your posts for us, thanks.

By "chevron" are you refering to the "M" or "W" stamp? If so, it seems to be a double chevron? That would be very interesting! Does your source say what it refers to? Most of the stamps we see - Ko, To, Na, Seki, Gifu, etc - refer to localities or arsenals. The Sho was created for the stamping of non-traditional blades and the Star for RJT blades, but most have a direct reference to their meaning.

[Bruce Pennington]

2. The chevron marking (山形 yamagata) as used on swords is a partial (or halfway) inspection mark used by the Imperial Japanese Army. It shows up on army arsenal or civilian factory made ordnance items. This marking is not specific to any one location but can be used by any factory. The stamp was used from 1941 to the end of the war in 1945. This is a common stamp and can be found on just about any item made during 1941 to 1945.

 

Thomas,

I looked up "Yamagata" and found there is a prefecture named Yamagata. It is near another prefeture, Fukushima, that I have seen an inspector stamp from (fuku). It is possible these are inspector stamps from the various prefectures. Interesting! The word means "mountain shape" and would be a fitting stamp for the Yamagata prefecture.

[Kiipu]

By "chevron" are you refering to the "M" or "W" stamp? If so, it seems to be a double chevron? That would be very interesting! Does your source say what it refers to?

 

The yamagata 山形 looks like a capital M.  The Imperial Japanese Army used this marking for a variety of purposes over the years.  One of which was a partial or halfway inspection mark.

 

An illustration of the marking can be found on page 1194 of A Dictionary of Military Terms, by H. T. Creswell, J. Hiraoka, and R. Namba.

Edited September 28, 2019 by Thomas

[Bruce Pennington]

Ahso! It says “property of the War Dept”. That makes more sense than the prefecture idea. Mantetsu blades, even unfinished ones sent to the Tokyo Arsenal, wouldn’t be getting a Yamagata prefecture stamp, but getting a War Dept stamp would make sense! It would also explain why blades would have them from other areas of the empire.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Great development, think we have our answer finally!

[Bruce Pennington]

That's quite an interesting book Thomas cited. It is an American edition, first published in 1942, of the original Tokyo edition dated "as far back as 1932." Col Creswell had 2 Japanese officers working with him on it.

Nick Komiya, Warrelics, has doubts about the definition since the yamagata images on blankets and other military items have 3 full peaks. I believe it is possible they Army stamp marking office simply narrowed the image to fit a tiny metal stamp.

[WilBru5]

Hello Bruce P.

Here is another "W" stamped blade for you.    I haven't learned who the smith is yet.  nor have I yet translated the date.  There are two other stamps, 1 on the tang and one on the edge.

Hope this helps apparently I haven't quite learned who to correctly edit pics before I upload.   sorry

[BANGBANGSAN]

Hello Bruce P.

Here is another "W" stamped blade for you.    I haven't learned who the smith is yet.  nor have I yet translated the date.  There are two other stamps, 1 on the tang and one on the edge.

Hope this helps apparently I haven't quite learned who to correctly edit pics before I upload.   sorry

Looks like 直助 Naosuke （野口健一）。昭和十九年十二月，1944，December.

[WilBru5]

Thanks Trystan

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks Bruce,

 

The other stamps are Gifu stamps. The one you are thinking is a W is tough to make out. Maybe it's more obvious in person. I can see it might be poorly struck and is the left half of a W, but it could be a poorly struck Seki as well.

 

Trystan, you are WAY better at reading smith names than I will ever be, but would the kanji "直" be written with 4 vertical lines? I don't know what it could be but that seem odd.

 

Bruce you might run it by the Translation Assistance forum: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/forum/15-translation-assistance/

[BANGBANGSAN]

Bruce

He wrote 助 differently as well.sometimes smith use simple way to write thire signature .You can saw the similar writng on the tang from other smith .

 

 

Thanks Bruce,

The other stamps are Gifu stamps. The one you are thinking is a W is tough to make out. Maybe it's more obvious in person. I can see it might be poorly struck and is the left half of a W, but it could be a poorly struck Seki as well.

Trystan, you are WAY better at reading smith names than I will ever be, but would the kanji "直" be written with 4 vertical lines? I don't know what it could be but that seem odd.
20191006_072447.jpg

Bruce you might run it by the Translation Assistance forum: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/forum/15-translation-assistance/

 

[WilBru5]

Thanks I will do so

[BANGBANGSAN]

Hello Bruce P.

Here is another "W" stamped blade for you.    I haven't learned who the smith is yet.  nor have I yet translated the date.  There are two other stamps, 1 on the tang and one on the edge.

Hope this helps apparently I haven't quite learned who to correctly edit pics before I upload.   sorry

Mark on Photo 5 looks like 岐 Gifu

[Bruce Pennington]

Bruce

He wrote 助 differently as well.sometimes smith use simple way to write thire signature .You can saw the similar writng on the tang from other smith .

Moriyama (Nobody) over on Translation Assistance said the same thing! I humble myself before you and expose my neck for your blade!!!

[BANGBANGSAN]

Moriyama (Nobody) over on Translation Assistance said the same thing! I humble myself before you and expose my neck for your blade!!!

Check these Traditional  VS Simplified Kanji

 like 算 VS  祘，you will not know it's the same Kanji if you never learn how to write them.

Kanji on Photo 3 :直 真 具 其 县。you can see the difference .It's tricky sometimes when people did't write it standard.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Here's an odd one, Yoshiharu sword dated 1943 with three "W" stamps, don't think I've ever encountered the same stamp struck three times on a sword before.

[Bruce Pennington]

Here's an odd one, Yoshiharu sword dated 1943 with three "W" stamps, don't think I've ever encountered the same stamp struck three times on a sword before.

 

John,

 

It's out there. When you find them on Mantetsu, there are often 2 W's. The one's with 3 seem to be on named smiths. Here's a Takehisa with 3. No idea why.

 

I'm still puzzled by the idea that these are "midway/halfway" inspection stamps. From the chart, these should be chevron-up, like mountain peaks "M", but predominantly they are chevron-down like "W". Ran this by Richard Fuller and he's not convinced it is the stamp referenced in the chart Thomas found.

[Bruce Pennington]

After scanning this whole thread, I don't see the chart I had just mentioned. Thomas found this in Rikugunshō 陸軍省 [War Ministry]. Rikugun Heiki Gyōsei Honbu 陸軍兵器行政本部 [Army Ordnance Administration Headquarters]. Ken’in oyobi hyōshiki kitei 檢印及標識規定 [Regulations for Inspection Marks and Signs]. After discussing it with Nick Komiya, Warrelics http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/mysterious-w-stamp-636794-3/, it seems fairly certain the W stamp is a "midway/halfway" inspection mark. As you can see in the chart, though, it should be an M, as yamagata means "mountain shape", and is called a "chevron." Nick even has a shovel with the W stamp, and he believes after reading this chart, that this is what we are seeing.

 

It would fit the unfinished Mantetsu blades sent to the Tokyo arsenal (and likely some sent to Mukden) as these could have had midway inspections before leaving the factory. I don't see why private smiths, like Takehisa, would have midway inspections on their work before finishing, though. Yet, since I have almost NO IDEA of the process these blades went through, I admit it was possible. In a similar vein, I admit there might have been a reason for stamping them upside-down too. Maybe we'll find out some day!

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Can't say I understand why a sword would be struck three times with the same stamp though, it would imply it passed through three sets of inspections....by the same inspector! Not very efficient during wartime for a simple Showa-To. With this one there are similarities to two other swords, might just be coincidence though:

 

1: Koa Isshin dated 1942 - same Koshirae maker

2: Mantetsu with "W" stamp 1943, synthetic Samegawa

[PNSSHOGUN]

Another Takehisa with W stamp and synthetic samegawa: http://www.nipponto.co.jp/swords5/KY331283.htm

[Bruce Pennington]

John,

I see what you're getting at. I can't think of any other stamp that is found more than once on a blade (except those that have extra stamping on the nakago mune). So why multiples of the W?

 

Are you investigating the possibility that these are put on by the fitters?

[PNSSHOGUN]

It's beginning to look like these smiths were part of a group utilizing the same Koshirae makers and possibly mounting the later Mantetsu signed blades as well.

 

Another Mantetsu with "W" stamp and synthetic samegawa: http://www.artswords.com/a_minty_gunto_mounted_mantetsu_sword_091812.htm

[Bruce Pennington]

A question came up about blades marked 3 times with the W/M. I've found 2 smith's - John's Yoshiharu, and 2 Takehisa blades. The Takehisa in Slough's has all 3 on one side. But the one linked in John's post above has 2 on one side and 1 on the other of the nakago. The Yoshiharu is similar, 2 on one side, 1 on the other.