The Mysterious "w" Stamp!

[Bruce Pennington]

I'm also posting, when I find them, the stamps found on other military equipment, like this shovel provided by Nick Komiya at Warrelics.com. I've heard there are some on guns, but I don't have pics of them yet.

[Bruce Pennington]

And out of curiosity, I've made a collage of several stamps. It's clear there is quite a bit of variation, so the stamps are made by different shops or arsenals. Still cannot answer JP's question as to whether these stamps were in a machine press or something hand-held and struck with a hammer. Many are struck crookedly, which I have assumed meant hand-held, but the same affect could happen in a press if the weapon wasn't held perpendicular to the stamp.

 

 

I'm still puzzled by the fact that so many of them have flat "peaks". There are a couple with pointy peaks, but the majority seem to have flat peaks. If these are supposed to be double-chevrons, I would think they should be pointy.

[Jdanler]

I also have a sword with 2 w stamps - one on each side of the tang. Looks like it was made by yoshiharu in 1943.

[Jdanler]

I also have a sword with 2 w stamps - one on each side of the tang. Looks like it was made by yoshiharu in 1943.

[MarcoUdin]

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not sure this is relevant at all, but if I recall correctly on arisaka's the 'M' is not an M but 'ro'. And was used for training, I think it was something like educational use only. Nothing to do with the long 'M' which meant military reserves. I'll check later if I can find where I read that, it's been a while.

[Bruce Pennington]

I also have a sword with 2 w stamps - one on each side of the tang. Looks like it was made by yoshiharu in 1943.

Thanks Marc. Yoshiharu is one of the known smiths that had the stamp, though we don't know why there is a small group of names - Kaneoto (with Seki stamp); Haruhisa; Kokima Kanenori; Tenshin; Takehisa; Yoshiharu; and Yoshitani.

 

Your blades doesn't have a serial number on the nakago mune, does it?

[Jdanler]

Thanks Marc. Yoshiharu is one of the known smiths that had the stamp, though we don't know why there is a small group of names - Kaneoto (with Seki stamp); Haruhisa; Kokima Kanenori; Tenshin; Takehisa; Yoshiharu; and Yoshitani.

 

Your blades doesn't have a serial number on the nakago mune, does it?

 

Yes, "120" is stamped on the blade, the handle, the fittings, etc.

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes, "120" is stamped on the blade, the handle, the fittings, etc.

Could we get a photo of the number on the nakago?

 

Also, we could use a name. You can set one that appears at the bottom of each post in your settings.

 

https://youtu.be/pre5EXnhGE0

[Jdanler]

 

Could we get a photo of the number on the nakago?

Also, we could use a name. You can set one that appears at the bottom of each post in your settings.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

 

Thanks John! I know that Mantetsu wasn't the only blade producer that used the zodiacal dating system, but I just had to check on yours! It is an unusual place for the koshirae fitters to put a number. I've saved it for my records.

 

Thanks again!

[Kiipu]

On 8/31/2019 at 11:50 AM, Kiipu said:

2. The chevron marking (山形 yamagata) as used on swords is a partial (or halfway) inspection mark used by the Imperial Japanese Army.

 

As previously indicated, a very common inspection mark.  I have seen the M (yamagata) stamped multiple times on the same part.  To illustrate what I am talking about, see the picture 5b linked to below.  This component part is stamped four times with the yamagata M partial inspection mark.

REMOVED;Japanese Type 2 Grenade Launcher

[Bruce Pennington]

A 'for what it's worth' observation:  Of the dated blades I have on file with the, usually inverted, double-chevron (W), ALL of them are 1943.  I also have it on several Type 95s and some Zoheito which are not dated.  The smiths of the dated blades are Takehisa, Yoshiharu, and Yoshitani.

 

Checking the Mantetsu with the mark, they are found in the full range of years 1942, 1943, and the beginning of '44.

[Bruce Pennington]

An update on the previous post

 

I'm starting be think there was no "Yoshitani".  The only sources come from this text post Undocumented Showa Era Swordsmiths on the Japaneseswordindex.com and a page from Japaneseswords.com - Katana by Yoshitani.  I've run this by @mecox and he agrees the mei on the blade posted by Japanesesword.com is "Yoshiharu."  It is possible the Yoshitani listed on Japaneseswordindex came from a mis-translated blade as well. 

 

We have all encountered a WWII smith not listed in any reference books, so I hesitate to say with certainty that there was no Yoshitani, but after seeing a blade mis-labeled with that name, and considering that even the one listed on Japaneseswordindex shows his name with a "?" indicating that they have no kanji for the "tani" portion that matches, I'm going to drop the name from the list of known smiths who's blades carry the stamp.

 

If anyone knows of a Yoshitani blade, please post, but until then, I'll amend the Stamps doc accordingly.

[BANGBANGSAN]

55 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

An update on the previous post

 

I'm starting be think there was no "Yoshitani".  The only sources come from this text post Undocumented Showa Era Swordsmiths on the Japaneseswordindex.com and a page from Japaneseswords.com - Katana by Yoshitani.  I've run this by @mecox and he agrees the mei on the blade posted by Japanesesword.com is "Yoshiharu."  It is possible the Yoshitani listed on Japaneseswordindex came from a mis-translated blade as well. 

 

We have all encountered a WWII smith not listed in any reference books, so I hesitate to say with certainty that there was no Yoshitani, but after seeing a blade mis-labeled with that name, and considering that even the one listed on Japaneseswordindex shows his name with a "?" indicating that they have no kanji for the "tani" portion that matches, I'm going to drop the name from the list of known smiths who's blades carry the stamp.

 

If anyone knows of a Yoshitani blade, please post, but until then, I'll amend the Stamps doc accordingly.

That's the problem I am always aware. If there is also Kanji  instead of English only would be much easier for people to know which smith.The same kanji can have a few different pronunciations.

[Kiipu]

On 7/10/2020 at 9:37 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Kaneoto (with Seki stamp); Haruhisa; Kokima Kanenori; Tenshin; Takehisa; Yoshiharu; and Yoshitani.

 

Do you have links to the M stamped Kaneoto (with Seki stamp) and Kokima Kanenori?

Edited October 27, 2022 by Kiipu

[BANGBANGSAN]

2 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

Do you have links to the M stamped Kaneoto (with Seki stamp) and Kokima Kanenori?

Maybe is Kojima Kanenori 小島兼則 instead of Kokima Kanenori?

[Bruce Pennington]

11 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

Maybe is Kojima Kanenori 小島兼則 instead of Kokima Kanenori?

Yes, a typo.  I've corrected it in the Stamps Doc, thanks!

 

13 hours ago, Kiipu said:

Do you have links to the M stamped Kaneoto (with Seki stamp) and Kokima Kanenori?

Thomas,

Took me a while, didn't have them documented.  I think I switched the 'large Seki' on the 2 smiths.  It was a Kanenori on this Wehrmacht-Awards thread.  I referenced it on this Mysterious W Stamp thread. that has a very corroded large Seki, and what I still believe to be a very corroded 'W'.  The debate, of course, is whether corrosion simply appears to be a Seki and W, or if an original Seki and W got badly corroded.  I could see that either way, but, to me, the evidence looks like the stamps were originally there.

 

On Kaneoto, I'm striking out.  I've got Kaneoto with star, and Kaneoto with large Seki, but cannot find my reference to one with a W. 

 

But I did find a Yoshiharu with W & TO!

[Kiipu]

4 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

I referenced it on this "The Mysterious "w" Stamp!" that has a very corroded large Seki, and what I still believe to be a very corroded "W".

 

I have carefully looked at the picture linked to above and in my opinion it is merely corrosion and not an M stamp.

 

On 10/26/2022 at 6:48 AM, BANGBANGSAN said:

If there is also kanji instead of English only [it] would be much easier for people to know which smith. The same kanji can have a few different pronunciations.

 

Trystan, here are the characters for the swordsmiths that used the yamagata M stamp: Murakami Haruhisa 村上治久; Takehisa 武久; Tenshin 天心; and finally Yoshiharu (also known as Yoshitani) 義治.  This excludes the Mantetsutō 満鉄刀, Zoheitō 造兵刀, and Type 95 Military Sword 九五式軍刀.

[Kiipu]

In regards to Tenshin 天心, there are only two known blades and neither have a hole for the mekugi.  Also of note, is that the year was accidentally inscribed in the wrong order on one of them.

Incorrect year Can someone Identify please versus the correct year Need Help With Two Blades.

[BANGBANGSAN]

52 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

 

 

 

 

Trystan, here are the characters for the swordsmiths that used the yamagata M stamp: Murakami Haruhisa 村上治久; Takehisa 武久; Tenshin 天心; and finally Yoshiharu (also known as Yoshitani) 義治.  This excludes the Mantetsutō 満鉄刀, Zoheitō 造兵刀, and Type 95 Military Sword 九五式軍刀.

Thomas

I have a few photos of 村上治久, it didn't show the full tang, can't tell if there is an M mark on the tang, but can see the 東 and the shop marks on Kabutogane.BTW: The handwriting of 村上治久 is very similar to 武久。

 

[BANGBANGSAN]

1 hour ago, Kiipu said:

 

I have carefully looked at the picture linked to above and in my opinion it is merely corrosion and not an M stamp.

 

 

 

Agree

[BANGBANGSAN]

5 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

 

 

I did find a Yoshiharu with W & TO!

 

Bruce

One more 義治 Yoshiharu with M&東 for you.

 

[Kiipu]

23 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

I have a few photos of 村上治久, it didn't show the full tang, can't tell if there is an M mark on the tang, but can see the 東 and the shop marks on Kabutogane.

 

Trystan, I think there is a yamagata M at the bottom of the tang on this Murakami Haruhisa 村上治久.

Black paint: 七五二 = 752.

White paint: 六二 = 62.

Type 94 Shin-Gunto Tang Translation: Assistance Appreciated!

[Kiipu]

5 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

On Kaneoto, I'm striking out.  I've got Kaneoto with star, and Kaneoto with large Seki, but cannot find my reference to one with a W.

 

Maybe the Kaneoto 兼音 that is pictured alongside the Tenshin 天心 was the source of the confusion?  A close examination of the pictures reveals no M stamp on the Kaneoto.  However, it would be easy to get the two swords mixed up though and the Tenshin does have an M stamp.

Need Help With Two Blades

[Bruce Pennington]

Getting flooded.  Too much information.............

 

SO, the only confirmed smiths we have with the 'M' are: Haruhisa, Tenshin, Takehisa, and Yoshiharu.   Sorry, Thomas, I know you said that, but I'm re-grouping my mind for the moment.  I tried to track down prefectures for these guys and only have 2 - Takehisa: Aiichi and Yoshiharu: Tottori.  Both south of Tokyo, north of Nagoya.

 

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, Kiipu said:

 

Trystan, I think there is a yamagata M at the bottom of the tang on this Murakami Haruhisa 村上治久.

Black paint: 七五二 = 752.

White paint: 六二 = 62.

Type 94 Shin-Gunto Tang Translation: Assistance Appreciated!

I agree, and thanks for an actual example.  I have only had the Slough reference to Haruhisa, from his Mantetsu page, pg 96, until now.

[Kiipu]

The location of all of the above swordsmiths is unknown with the possible exception of Yoshiharu 義治.  @cabowen states that he was located in Tōkyō.

Translation assistance with WW2 Oficers Katana, Post #14

 

I think Chris Bowen is correct because in 1937 there was a shop in Shibuya-ku, Tōkyō, that was run by Yoneda Yosaburō 米田･與三郎.  What is interesting about Yoneda-san is that he used the mei of Minamoto Yoshiharu 源義治.  He had 8 workers, was capitalized at ¥5,000, and could manufacture 240 swords per month.  He started production at the Shibuya location in 1927.

 

Based upon the quantity of swords being made monthly, it is doubtful that these are traditional blades. I think that at some point in the war, Yoneda san got a contract from the army to manufacture some economy swords for officers.  As such, army marking regulations came into effect that required the smith's name and date be inscribed on the tang.  Furthermore, the blades would have been inspected at the time of delivery or completion.

 

My statement above about "economy swords" is based upon posts by @PNSSHOGUN in which he pointed out the similarities in construction.  Beside his comments in this thread, there is another one at the link below.

Request for kanji assistance please, Post #3

[Bruce Pennington]

14 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

The location of all of the above swordsmiths is unknown with the possible exception of Yoshiharu 義治.  @cabowen states that he was located in Tōkyō.

Translation assistance with WW2 Oficers Katana, Post #14

Sesko lists 2 Yoshiharu:

YOSHIHARU (義治), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Tottori – “Yoshiharu” (義治), family name Mitani (三谷), rikugun-jumei-tōshō
YOSHIHARU (義治), Heisei (平成, 1989- ), Niigata → MOTOHIRA (基平), Heisei (平成, 1989- ), Niigata

 

Do you think our guy is neither of these?

 

For Takehisa, Slough, pg 169 shows him from Aiichi.

[Kiipu]

In summary, the timeline of the M partial inspection mark is as follows.  So far, the M inspection mark has only shown up on factory made blades fitted out as Type 98s.

 

満鉄刀 Mantetsu Sword
興亜一心　満鐵謹作　昭和壬午春　1942 Spring

興亜一心　満鐵作　昭和壬午秋　1942 Autumn

満鐵鍛造之　昭和癸未春　1943 Spring

満鐵鍛造之　昭和甲申春　1944 Spring

 

義治 Yoshiharu

1943 Spring

1943 Autumn

1944 Spring

 

武久 Takehisa

1943 Spring

1943 Autumn

1944 Spring

 

村上治久 Murakami Haruhisa

1944 Spring

 

天心 Tenshin

1945 January

[Bruce Pennington]

That’s fascinating to see it laid out that way, Thomas! Thanks for the post!