suggestion

[Guest reinhard]

Just a suggestion: There are more and more posts on this board dealing with questions about swords offered by e-bay and other online dealers (including some of the registered members of this board). Since over 95 % of these are crap, I would appreciate it, if there would be a corner for the ignorant, the blind and the crooks, where they will be able to discuss their trash without bothering those, who are really interested in Japanese ART swords and kodogu. All we need is another sub-forum.It could be called: "online bargains" or so. I'm not willing to answer any posts with titles like: "Quick translation needed" (why quick?), "sword on e-bay, what do you think ?" and the like.

Am I the only one who asks himself questions like these? If yes, I'll be soon off. Now don't get me wrong: NMB is a great site and really well done. I'm just wondering where it is going right now.

 

reinhard

[sencho]

If you don't like a question or post, Reinhard, then just ignore it....

 

Novices learn a lot very quickly from posting and reading these type of questions.... even some of the experts, learned and most respected members have posted "quick translation" questions... some of them recently...

 

Members that provide answers to these "trivial" questions, that you so despise, obviously do not mind answering, otherwise they would not do so... the reason that you are so upset about it baffles me, when you can just work on so many other things....

 

I am sure that many people do not have the resources to buy lots of books or travel to Japan... this forum provides a medium for them to learn more through discussion with the more experienced people in this field... you are entirely free not to answer these questions or not provide help to others... no one will judge you for it...

 

Why not just concentrate on the expert posts if that is what makes you happy?

 

No disrespect intended, but it seems like you just wasted your time answering the ebay question today, since you are obviously not interested in answering and your answer was not in the least bit constructive (and actually rather rude) to someone who is only trying to learn more and is a respectful and congenial member of the board.

 

I am certainly no expert in Nihonto and I am lucky to have many resources at my disposal, but I certainly feel that inexperienced people should be encouraged rather than shot down.

 

Cheers!

[John A Stuart]

Hi Reinhard, One of the things that I like about this forum is that there is an opportunity for people of all levels of expertise to learn from each other. If a person asks a question that seems foolish or uninformed, I have, this is the method by which one becomes more erudite, as long as it is with genuine desire to learn, how can anyone refuse to educate? Of course we all see questions that seem to repeat previous topics discussed but sometimes it takes multiple lessons for something to finally make sense, as well, with new enthusiasts this may be fresh information for them. The problem is when would a question become redundant? That could only be if we were all playing on a level field. I can't see why an enthusiast can't ask a beginners question when that is what they are. I hope you can have more patience with us still learning and remain a source of knowledge. John

[Rich T]

It the difference between a totally open forum, allowing for all forms of discussion, no matter how off topic they seem (well a bit on topic is the rule here I believe) or a more controlled serious forum (which is my preferred format) that keeps all threads on track. For me, I think it makes for a larger base of good information, and allows for many of the more advanced collectors to get involved. A lot of these collectors are just not interested in the silly stuff and stay away because of it.

 

However, having said all that, I agree totally with Nigel though, if the members did not want to answer these questions, they wouldn't, and you don't have to read them in the first place, though sometimes you have to to know what they are about. And beginners NEED TO BE ABLE TO ASK QUESTIONS, otherwise they will never learn. We cannot stop this and no right to try and stop it. (sorry for yelling) We were all beginners once.

 

Now, I still think a section just for Ebay is appropriate, especially as I am of the thinking that discussing ongoing auctions is inappropriate (aside from advertising your own auctions, then it is open for discussion). I feel an Ebay or online auction section removes this issue to a place you do not even have to enter if you feel strongly about it.

 

I have had this opinion shot down plenty of times in the past and it will continue to come under fire but I do not care, it is just my opinion.

 

Still, it rears it's head at least 2 or 3 times a year so it is an issue.

 

Maybe in the rules post a line stating "WE SUPPORT EBAY DISCUSSION SO GET OVER IT" and get it out up front LOL.

 

Just a thought.

 

Richard

[Guest reinhard]

Sencho,

You've got me wrong. I'm ready to help any novice with any subject whatsoever, but I've got the impression, that this forum is misused more and more for commercial reasons. What seems to be a naive question often turns out to be an attempt of getting info for trading.

I don't despise the ignorance of novices (after all this is what we all were once), but I detest all those half-educated amateur-dealers, who are trying to make a quick buck; and some are using this forum. All I claim for is: Let's make a clear(er) distinction between serious interest in ART swords and quick deals.

By the way, A trip to Japan is not more expensive than the costs of many of the worthless swords discussed in the "e-bay section".

 

reinhard

[Bungo]

" We were all beginners once. "

 

were ? , I think we ARE all beginners STILL

p.s. or we'll be issusing opinion in the form of origami and charge big bucks :D , thank god I don't sell swords on e-bay

 

milt the flying ronin

[Bungo]

" a more controlled serious forum (which is my preferred format) that keeps all threads on track. For me, I think it makes for a larger base of good information, and allows for many of the more advanced collectors to get involved "

 

go to this for serious stuff..................http://tosogu.blogspot.com/

 

I read but do not post since most likely I would pollute it like Microsoft did to Java and Trickie won't be none too pleased.............. :lol:

 

milt the flying ronin

[Brian]

Folks,

 

Bear with me for a bit please, I'm having the day from hell here :?

I'll respond in detail when I get home tonight.

I also want to point out that we do have a section called Auctions and Sales that is clearly labelled as "For the Discussion of Actual Sale and Auction Items or Sellers, and for eBay Auction Topics"

 

Brian

[Rich T]

" were ? , I think we ARE all beginners STILL

 

LOL, yes, I stand corrected, I was not trying to infer I know all. Far from it.

 

Oh, and Milt, re my tosogu forum ?, you chicken, you don't trust yourself huh LOL ?.

 

Rich

[Rich T]

we do have a section called Auctions and Sales that is clearly labelled as "For the Discussion of Actual Sale and Auction Items or Sellers, and for eBay Auction Topics"

 

Brian

 

Hi Brian, you are of course correct, but live auctions still manage to spread themselves all over the various sections of the forum. I still think, and always will, that an "Ebay only" section would be preferable if you want to talk about these auctions.

 

Cheers, and sorry for the bad day, I had 5 of them last week.

 

Richard

[Brian]

Ok, let's see if I can address some of these issues.

I had much better comments in my head throughout the day, but few of them lingered long enough for me to post them here.

 

I took a long look at the other forums out there, who was participating, and who I wanted to appeal to mostly before laying down the forum guidelines. One of the hardest decisions to make was whether to allow eBay discussions or not.

Quite frankly, eBay is here to stay. There is no getting around that. I think we would all be very surprised if we knew who some of the people are that browse online auctions. Maybe some of them make one careful purchase a year, after carefully identifying their "target" with prior experience, but you only have to have a look at some of the buyers and sellers to know that there are deals to be had if you know what to look for, and lots of mistakes to be made if you don't.

Beginners have to start somewhere. Hopefully they don't start with eBay, or otherwise have the good sense to ask someone who knows, before they buy. That is one of the (lesser) aims here. The main aim is as stated above: To promote the study and preservation of Japanese swords and fittings. That overrules everything else. But if people are going to dabble on eBay, then there are very few (if any) other places they can come to before buying and making a mistake.

This is even before we come to the pitfalls of fraud and online sellers with lesser ethics. If not here, then where? We were all beginners once, and many like me are still beginners. I still consider myself an absolute novice, and any tiny information I do have comes mainly from this forum, and the books I am clever enough to invest in. So I constantly look at this forum as something that I would have appreciated when i started out, and constantly learn from. Is it the ideal way to learn? Of course not. That comes from studying good swords in hand, and meeting with other collectors. But when those are not available, this is a good second bet. better than nothing at the very least.

 

That all being said, is this forum focussed on absolute beginners and people looking to make a buck? I would like to think not.

We have very experienced collectors here who still have time to share what they know, and hopefully still learn the occasional thing along the way. People who don't have to, but sit and translate for people who have a need, without any other reward besides a simple thanks. Others who browse the "For Sale" section and make a buck selling their excess goods without all the auction hassles. Others who pick up a bargain there before it goes to eBay.

People like Rich S and Rich T who know all the pitfalls of running a forum like this first hand, and yet still come here and share what they can. Others who spent their lives dedicated to Nihonto, and yet still type a patient and rewarding reply to someone who is just starting out. There are also more advanced discussions to be found..some going into extreme detail of things I had no idea about.

 

Y'know..even a quick look at the General Discussion and Nihonto section shows me a whole page of great discussions, and VERY few of them dealing with anything that isn't relevant. Yes, there is the occasional off-topic post or "financially based translation request, but I really don't see floods of them at all. Even some of the basic questions led to serious discussion about steel compositions, new smiths, school debates and so on.

It is easy to pick out one post a week and say that the tone is deminishing or so on...but that is out of a 100 or so posts. We always note the negative and skip over the positive. In an ideal world, we get super-serious, discuss only serious subjects, all the NTHK and NBTHK panel members join, and we carry on as some online super society. But I have my doubts that would happen. Lots of the serious collectors would never participate no matter how this forum was run. Many are not online, and even more prefer face-to-face discussion. And then the newcommers would continue to buy junk on eBay, and once we are all dead, the next generation would have wonderful collections of Chinese junk.

 

And so I try and offer some middle ground. I believe you can have a serious and on-topic forum as long as you narrow the field of interest, as Rich T has done. He has a wonderful forum, and it will continue that way as long as he controls it as well as he has. I highly recommend it for everyone to read regularly as I do. As for Nihonto forums...most have fallen away for the reasons far above. These things take a lot of time to run. If my boss knew how much time I spent online at work, I would be jobless. So comments about "this forum is going downhill" or "I am going to leave if so and so doesn't change" do hurt.

Take a look at the Tosogu forum. I think it is a stunning success. Nowhere near as good as Rich's forum, but most of us sword guys read it daily and now have some knowledge where there was none. This is mainly due to 10 or so tosogu guys who answer questions, discuss topics and are not scared to repeat things that they regard as elementary by now. They make it work. If the advanced collectors leave, then that section goes down the tubes.

That all being said (and I have rambled considerably) there is not a single post above that doesn't have a good and valid point.

I want us to be able to discuss items without the sole purpose being for someone to sell it with an accurate description. I have addressed that before in a sticky, and I honestly don't see it happening frequently anymore. If noticed, you only have to notify me or Stephen and we will take action.

I don't see too many fakes being posted with requests for verification anymore. Maybe we are getting somewhere? Yes, there are posts that are questionable, but are they really so frequent? I don't see it, if they are.

I see a lot more interesting posts giving info on schools, displays, recent events, new finds and related items. No-one can predict when a "fluff post" is going to turn serious and some of them have turned into the most interesting threads of all.

Yes, I do allow eBay discussions here. The reasons I think have been well expressed by now. But I do not encourage them or wish for them to dominate. If you need to ask something, or have a serious question, then by all means ask it. If you need to "check out" a seller, then so so, but try and not turn it into a "bash the seller" thread. The key should be "when necessary" and not "at any possible opportunity" should we discuss ebay.

 

Given the fact that the previous posters do have a valid point, i am going to try and tighten up on the controls and steer eBbay discussions to the section mentioned in my previous post. Let's keep the discussions of eBay and online sale items and sellers in the appropriate section and leave the more serious discussions in their correct place. There are already rules in place for information requests that are profit based, and if anyone sees infringements, just notify me. You are welcome to ask about info on something you wish to sell, but at least let us know when you request it.

 

Lastly, let's not pick out a few incidents and use that as a reason to leave. There are a few 1000 people weekly who gain from experienced posts, and maybe 5% of posts that tempt you to leave. For the sake of the beginners, novices and constantly learning more advanced collectors, please stick around everyone and rather be part of the solution than just pack up and leave. Oneday (hopefully far in the future) I would rather like to turn around and say I helped a few people learn about Nihonto than say I wasn't happy with things, and did the easy thing by leaving. We don't just owe it to the Nihonto world to preserve the swords and fittings for future generations...we owe it to them to pass on what we have learned. Otherwise we are nothing but selfish.

 

Hope I haven't rambled too much. If you made it this far, you have more stamina than me

I'll try and keep the ebay discussions in their place, if you all try and stick it out and help where you can.

 

Regards,

Brian

[Michel D]

Hi all

 

While steering clear from Ebay, I am sometimes asked "advise" or "opinion" by members of another forum about items listed on Ebay.

 

I am not and expert (far away from) and try to do my best when I answer, and unfortunately most often, negatively, given what is offered.

At the least, this forces me to "study" , think over what is proposed and possibly pin point what is wrong: in other words I also learn...

 

If the person who asked advice has learned something and maybe avoided to be swindled, I am satisfied. As a buyer, I also take advise from experienced people and do not forget that I have been a very beginner... hopefully, I have improved and am now a beginner :D

 

Regards

[DirkO]

The reason that got me to this forum was that I was looking to buy a blade on Ebay. It turned out to be chinese crap. It was a blow to the ego, but at least no blow to my wallet. But having found this forum, I'm learning rapidly now, and new books are added to my stack on a weekly basis almost. Even more, through this forum I got in contact with Zenon Van Damme who sold me my first nihonto just last weekend. So from an enthousiastic beginner's point of view this forum has undoubtedly been crucial in correcting my erronous ways and pointing me to the right sources of info.

 

You're doing a great job at this forum, Brian, to me it's my first stop every day !!!

 

PS: I hope me being a beginner will also add to my luck in the raffle

[Bungo]

Oh, and Milt, re my tosogu forum ?, you chicken, you don't trust yourself huh LOL ?.

 

Rich

 

quoting Bertrand Russell.............." The stupids are cock sure and the intelligents are always full of doubts "

 

Or something along that line

 

milt the flying ronin

[Bungo]

" eBay is here to stay. There is no getting around that. I think we would all be very surprised if we knew who some of the people are that browse online auctions. Maybe some of them make one careful purchase a year, after carefully identifying their "target" with prior experience, but you only have to have a look at some of the buyers and sellers to know that there are deals to be had if you know what to look for, and lots of mistakes to be made if you don't. "

 

Proud to be early victim of master snipers like Weisberg and Condell ( the latter even e-mailed me saying............I am not done yet , and he outsniped me again !!)

 

milt the flying ronin

[Guest reinhard]

quoting Bertrand Russell.............." The stupids are cock sure and the intelligents are always full of doubts "

 

Definitely true. You've got to be cock sure to buy an object of art without having seen it with your own eyes.

 

reinhard

[Bungo]

and cock sure everything is " crap " ?........

 

milt the ronin