Unknown Sageo And Tsukamaki

[kevinflores]

Hi,

im looking for the names and possibly the kumihimo diagrams for these braids. i have a few books on kumihimo but im not able to find anything on these not even a name. i called one kohrai because that is the one it looks most like in one of my books.

 

im looking to make these braids myself if i can find out how its done

 

any info is appreciated.

 

 

Thanks,

Kevin

[Geraint]

Hi Kevin.

 

Not sure if this book is still available but you might enjoy "Samurai Undressed" by Jacqu Carey.1995.  Jacqui spent some time exploring the braiding of Japanese armour and wrote this little book with some explanation of how she was using the techniques.  In addition the bibliography would leads you to other sources.  As the techniques are being explored by other crafts people you might also find some useful links on YouTube and PInterest.

 

Looking forward to seeing the results of your efforts.

 

All the best.

[Barrie B]

Kevin,

 

Are you talking about specific names for types of 'Sageo' and 'Ito'..? Sorry I cannot help you there. We all need them, and I have bought heaps of Sageo over the years.. None custom made though.. That would be nice..! Perhaps you could invent your own style..? I am sure that if you are able to perfect this craft, then you will (and should be) very pleased with yourself.. I hope you succeed.

 

Good luck with it.

 

Barrie.

[Dave R]

 I would also suggest looking up "Obijime", a lot of the same techniques are used in the production of these. Some of them make nice Sageo as they are. Personally I think they were both made by the same craftsmen, back in the day, and possibly still are.

[Toryu2020]

Nakamurasho

a tokyo shop does obijime, sageo and other braiding. they have a terrific website...

-t

[Jussi Ekholm]

I can try to look more info for you when I've got more time. I have plenty of reference terms in my nihonto encyclopedias for sageo and tsukaito. It's getting 2.00 in here and I need to get to bed. Look for 竜甲組, I read that this type of sageo was popular in Owari koshirae, not sure if it's the same style you are looking for. You'll also find some styles from Japanese wikipedia to aid your searching: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%8B%E7%B7%92

[kevinflores]

Hey thanks guys.

i plan to learn how to do kumihimo and build my own takadai using plans. i hope to have success and would be glad to show my work if its acceptable. i plan to start with silk then move to rayon after i do better.

i can find the book samurai undressed at the watson library so ill go there for that book.

 

i picked up a 3 obijime recently but the sellers dont know the names. they arent the same length as sageo but they are good just the same. if i cant find any info i might have to use obijime and unravel them to reverse engineer the braids and try to figure it out.

 

Jussi,

if you do have references and some time i would like to see what you find out. my biggest priority is the tsuka ito and the blue and gold sageo. any info on those two would be eye opening

 

Thanks guys,

Kevin

[b.hennick]

The KTK catalogues sometime have the work of a KTK member in Japan who makes  sageo etc. You might try to contact her. 

[e_v]

Kevin,

Please keep us updated on your kumihimo adventure: I wondered a few times how steep the learning curve is and following the experience of someone who is just starting would be interesting.

[kevinflores]

Enrico,

i have heard that it takes about 20 hours to make one 180cm double layer sageo about 8-10cm per hour and that depends of course on how many bobbins there are on a given braid the most i plan to go up to is 68. i imagine it becomes tedious after a while but the results are worth it. There is one called ryomen kikko which is a kikko pattern on both sides that has 144 bobbins on it. The things you need to be concerned with most of all is keeping tension holding the bobbins correctly and beating correctly and consistently. Its better to get a teacher to learn these thing from rather than to teach yourself.

May 29-30 is when i plan to go to my first kumihimo workshop for two afternoons then i plan to purchase takadai plans then i will head to home depot for some wood and then get to building

 

Also Barry,

i tried looking up the kokusai tosogu kai but its difficult to know which year has the catalog of sageo or what the ladies name is.

[b.hennick]

Ms Midori Suzuki (Kumihimo-shi) last catalogue (2015 11th catalogue) pg 66 even has a picture of her setup. 

[Jussi Ekholm]

Sorry I can't find the pictures of some of the more rare sageo types anywhere. I have 30+ variety types that I can't find pictures of... I have the kanji for them but Google gives nothing.

 

Here is the Facebook of Nakamurasho (that Thomas suggested earlier) and it has a link to their homepage. https://www.facebook.com/nakamurasho1893

 

You could also try contacting Hans Koga. I saw some of the sageo he had made on NBTHK meeting some time ago. I can't really remember the weaves but Hans will surely know more than me.

 

I made some basic sageo styles many years ago. It's pretty fun but for me even this basic weave was pretty time consuming as I ain't no craftsman. I always used cheap cotton thread but I got some decent results. Kumihimo skills are very nice, and of course the more complicated weaves are pretty awesome.

[kevinflores]

Jussi,

Hey thanks for looking. Luckily makiko tada`s treatise books have photos as well as English translations so a lot of sageo i was able to find the names for. im wondering if its possible to figure out how a braid is done if you purchased a sageo or obijime and unravel a part of it. i wont figure out the name but at least id be able to figure out how many strands of silk are used and (hopefully) some insight on how the weaving is done. i wonder if someone has experience doing something like that. Imagine sitting at a takadai and experimenting with different numbers of strands and trying to design a new kumihimo braid. it reminds me of a quote on this forum about Omori Teruhide and copies of his work: you have to me a master of the rules in order to effectively break them. to the trained eye his work is easy to separate from the copies because he makes his waves without using a diagram to start from.

 

maybe i could set up a camera to record me unraveling it then play the video in reverse. i might have to get multiple angles of the top bottom and braiding center to figure out where each strand is going. then id have to figure out where the sequence starts and where it ends

 

i bought a few obijime and i figured out that kanze ori is just 4 strands of twisted silk sewn together. its almost like jabara ito in a way except you sew four strands together instead of two. the one i bought looks different in that with mine all strands are the same thickness. in the photo above the outer stands are thicker than the inner. its possible "kanze ori" is made on a stand but it just might be sewn together. i also bought what i think is a "kohrai" obijime that i will try to unravel at some point.

 

I checked out Nakamurasho but i didnt see any of the braids im looking for(but all of them were very nice) he seems to do most of his work on the ayatakadai which makes very elegant braids.

 

Hans Koga might know something about that tsuka ito or where to get some which would be great. i found his facebook page and it looks like he does top notch work i will try to contact him about that.

 

that sageo looks very good very even. normally when your done you would burn off the broken strands using low heat. its time consuming for everyone but some are really good at it. There`s a video on YouTube of a guy doing a red and black korai ayagaki braid of a bat in mist/clouds and he move superhuman fast with no diagram. Does the over and under method makes the shed brings the bobbin to the other side beats the strand in while using his now free hand to begin opening the shed for the other side. Amazing stuff.

 

Thanks everybody,

Kevin